RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

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38 posts

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#3142977 5-Oct-2023 09:09

SaltyNZ:
weasel13: Their issue isn't with taxation going towards subsidies for EVs their complaint is that it is a targeted tax not general taxation.

Do any of your example relate to a targeted tax or are they all general taxation? At least use a directly comparable example

Yes, it's targeted at polluting vehicles. They buy polluting vehicles. Therefore they pay the targeted tax. Makes sense to me.

It shows how brain dead you are. They don't have an option to choose another type of vehicle. A direct taxation is generally to change behavior but when there is no alternative and they can't change behavior then the taxation becomes unfair.

And again you've changed your tune. Earlier you were trying to give examples of general taxation that you pay. At least stay consistent

SaltyNZ

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#3142978 5-Oct-2023 09:10

weasel13:
SaltyNZ:

Assuming you mean minibuses/vans then generally no, they're about the same, as you can see by looking up the fees.

You do realize that there is a maximum fee so looking up fees is not relevant. Some of those in example you provide don't even have co2 listed

And with only three notable exceptions for the biggest of the big vans, most of them do not attract the maximum fee as some of the utes do, which further invalidates your argument that "They are more economical than some other vehicles on the roads often driven by those that can't afford to upgrade."

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SaltyNZ

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#3142979 5-Oct-2023 09:15

weasel13: They don't have an option to choose another type of vehicle. A direct taxation is generally to change behavior but when there is no alternative and they can't change behavior then the taxation becomes unfair.

They have an option to wait till there are - because there already are electric 4WDs in other markets - or they had the option to buy before the fee came in, as many did during the massive uptick in polluting vehicle registrations in the month before. If they're buying new $80K utes every three years then a $3000 fee isn't going to break the bank.

It shows how brain dead you are. And again you've changed your tune. Earlier you were trying to give examples of general taxation that you pay. At least stay consistent

No, I haven't changed my tune - you demanded a comparison to a targeted tax, so I gave you one. Also, thanks, everyone says so. :-)

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freitasm

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#3142980 5-Oct-2023 09:17

@weasel13:

It shows how brain dead you are.

I'm locking you out of this discussion. The FUG is clear: attack the message, not the person.

michaelmurfy

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#3142982 5-Oct-2023 09:19

weasel13: It shows how brain dead you are. They don't have an option to choose another type of vehicle. A direct taxation is generally to change behavior but when there is no alternative and they can't change behavior then the taxation becomes unfair.

Hey now no need for the attacks.

There are actually cleaner options out there that are even exempt. We don't need more people dropping their children off in their spotless, clearly not for work Ford Ranger Raptors...

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frankv

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#3142992 5-Oct-2023 09:40

weasel13:

They don't have an option to choose another type of vehicle.

They have the same options they had before utes were available. Plus quadbikes and ATVs. Plus a wider variety of tractors.

I suspect that the chief attraction of utes is that they are automatically accepted by IRD as a work vehicle, and consequently all costs are tax-deductable, ironically including the "ute tax".

cddt

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#3143010 5-Oct-2023 10:23

michaelmurfy:

We don't need more people dropping their children off in their spotless, clearly not for work Ford Ranger Raptors...

I used to share an underground carpark with Auckland Transport. Incredible how many of their senior managers would drive to work in their absolutely spotless Rangers...

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RunningMan

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#3143013 5-Oct-2023 10:35

michaelmurfy:[snip] We don't need more people dropping their children off in their spotless, clearly not for work Ford Ranger Raptors...

I think that's 2 unrelated issues there.

1) Kids being driven to school unnecessarily. It goes against campaigning for better health, lower obesity etc as well as creating additional congestion and safety issues for pedestrians around schools.

2) Whether a ute is used for work. Does it really matter if it's used for work or not? A ute makes sense for some people's personal use for various reasons.

Benoire

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#3143014 5-Oct-2023 10:39

cddt:

michaelmurfy:

We don't need more people dropping their children off in their spotless, clearly not for work Ford Ranger Raptors...

I used to share an underground carpark with Auckland Transport. Incredible how many of their senior managers would drive to work in their absolutely spotless Rangers...

Which one was that? I've been at AT for 13 years and I only knew of one man who had a ute, my old boss, and it was a Ford Ranger... he left in 2017 and now AT has no car parking for staff on prem, anyone who drives is now doing so as a regular joe commuter.

alasta

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#3143027 5-Oct-2023 11:04

It's a shame that electric vehicles have become another culture war, and this thread has gone way off topic, but here are my hopefully pragmatic thoughts:

People shouldn't be using cars unless absolutely necessary, regardless of the powertrain. Walking and public transport should be the first option where possible.
Local councils need to be more pro-active with parking enforcement to improve experiences for pedestrians.
People shouldn't own a bigger car than they need, but large vehicles still have valid use cases.
Electric vehicles are excellent for people who do a lot of short trips but still have enough downtime for charging - e.g. florists and property managers.
Mainstream electric vehicles cost upwards of $70k even with the subsidy and for most people it is extremely difficult to get an economic payback from that additional capex. This is particularly true for people who can't charge at home either because they don't have the facilities, or because most of their driving is over longer distances.
Computer nerds wrongly assume that the average person has the technology proficiency to operate cheaper electric vehicles such as Tesla or Build Your Dreams. I tried driving one recently and there was a lot of foul language coming from the driver's seat.

I have just ordered a new Mazda CX-30 and I am not going to apologise to electric vehicle fanatics for my decision to purchase the vehicle that best suits my needs, but I will certainly be using the car sparingly to minimise its CO2 impact. For the record, I travel about 4000km per year on foot and about 2500km per year on public transport.

sen8or

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#3143031 5-Oct-2023 11:05

frankv:

They have the same options they had before utes were available. Plus quadbikes and ATVs. Plus a wider variety of tractors.

I suspect that the chief attraction of utes is that they are automatically accepted by IRD as a work vehicle, and consequently all costs are tax-deductable, ironically including the "ute tax".

On your 2nd point, not entirely correct. Yes, costs can be claimed as a business expense, but they are still subject to the same FBT rules as any other perk.

They can qualify as a "work vehicle" (and therefore exempt from FBT) as they are built equally to transport passengers as cargo (50/50 split is maximum allowable), however, for them to be exempt from FBT, there are a few more qualifiers -

- There has to be a clear policy in place regarding no personal use of vehicles except to/from work.

- There has to be a letter on file to the employee confirming that it is a work vehicle and only to be used to travel to/from work (or stops incidental to that - along the way).

- The vehicle has to be sign written in the company's normal signage. Stick on / magnetic signs are not acceptable.

- There has to be checks done at least quarterly on the KMs travelled ensuring no personal use / adherence to the guidelines.

I'll quite happily admit that the odds of all these things happening on a builders ute is similar to winning powerball, but the IRD can enforce them and issue notices for tax breaches if the above conditions are found not to be met.

SaltyNZ

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#3143038 5-Oct-2023 11:18

alasta:

Mainstream electric vehicles cost upwards of $70k even with the subsidy and for most people it is extremely difficult to get an economic payback from that additional capex.

Huh? Only one of the three EVs we have/had costs upwards of $70K.

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RunningMan

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#3143090 5-Oct-2023 11:47

alasta:[snip]

Computer nerds wrongly assume that the average person has the technology proficiency to operate cheaper electric vehicles such as Tesla or Build Your Dreams. I tried driving one recently and there was a lot of foul language coming from the driver's seat.

I disagree with this point. Is there a learning curve? Definitely, but I don't think it requires much technological skill to learn. I know several people who struggle with new tech who quite successfully moved to driving an EV; in one case a Tesla which are arguably the most tech oriented and least like a traditional driving experience.

There's 2 aspects to jumping into an EV for the first time:

1) It's electric, so some of the basic driveline controls work differently (depending on the vehicle). What may have been a lever is now a switch.
2) It's just a different car so the menus work differently, controls are in different places, the heater is different etc. Nothing to do with it being electric, just a different car.

Dealing with both of these at the same time increases the cognitive load and could be overwhelming. I'd suggest if trying/buying/using an EV for the first time, go for a 10-20 min familiarisation drive with someone you know & trust (or some helpful & patient!) to get you comfortable with basic controls - moving/steering/indicating/stopping. Once that seems a bit more familiar then learn a bit more about the remaining secondary controls - heater/entertainment/wipers etc. Don't try to learn everything on day 1.

If you've driven say a petrol Kona, then jump in the electric version and see just how similar it is for most things. The move to the EV version really doesn't take that much.

As for tech proficiency, again, start real simple. Learn how to plug in the most common charger that you would use. You've learnt the difference between fuel nozzles at a patrol station without needing to know the differences in chemical composition of the fuels dispensed; it's not that complex. Don't get all tied up in how fast to charge, charging limits and all that stuff. Do you really need to know all that stuff just to drive? No, not really, but you are going to see it discussed way more than average here on GZ because more people here are interested in it. It's the same as comparing different types of petrol, their energy density and getting all tech about an ICE car - you simply don't need to know all that stuff to use it, but some people (again, this is tech forum so not reperesetivie of the average person) love getting into all the detail to understand the most efficient/ most powerful / fastest whatever interests them.