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evilengineer
466 posts

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  #3144465 9-Oct-2023 10:45
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MikeAqua:

 

You have misunderstood.  The objection (not mine) is primarily not about the subsidy it's about the tax.  A punitive, targeted tax policy, that they cannot avoid.  The tax policy is intended to encourage people to avoid high emitting vehicles, but .if people don't have a choice, that is unfair and they should be exempted.  The subsidy is probably just salt in the wounds

 

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight.  I bought my SUV before the ute tax.  By the time I need to replace it in 10 years/250,000km from now, I'm sure EVs will have developed much more and will be reasonably priced.

 

 

And that right there is the reason why new Utes should be taxed, either at the time of purchase of through bumped up RUCs!

 

We don't want any more new Utes on the roads today than is absolutely necessary as they'll still be belching CO2 in 10-15 years time.

 

If you absolutely have no choice in buying a brand new Ute for work, I'm sure there are some but it's significantly fewer than claimed, then you should suck it up as a cost subsequently mitigated by the tax treatment of business vehicles in general.

 

Got any other methods for discouraging "non essential" purchases of SUVs and Utes?

 

Here's a couple of leftie suggestions guaranteed to cause palpitations on the libertarian right:

 

     

  1. Ban advertising of Utes/SUVs to curb the incessant marketing from the car manufacturers that steer people towards these higher margin vehicles.
  2. A Permitting system for Ute purchases so that people need to prove a genuine need. No chitty=No Ute!

 

That second one is a bit draconian, even for me. 😉

 

But it would certainly clamp down on urban utes.  

 

      


 
 
 

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SaltyNZ
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  #3144539 9-Oct-2023 11:53
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evilengineer:

 

 

 

Got any other methods for discouraging "non essential" purchases of SUVs and Utes?

 

Here's a couple of leftie suggestions guaranteed to cause palpitations on the libertarian right:

 

     

  1. Ban advertising of Utes/SUVs to curb the incessant marketing from the car manufacturers that steer people towards these higher margin vehicles.

 

 

 

 

Has been reasonably effective for tobacco, alcohol and gambling.





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alasta
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  #3144543 9-Oct-2023 12:05
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So Mazda would be allowed to advertise the Mazda6, but would be banned from advertising the CX-3? What exactly does that achieve?




GV27
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  #3144545 9-Oct-2023 12:15
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evilengineer:

 

higher margin vehicles.

 

 

I don't think anyone at a sales floor level is steering customers to types of vehicle on sales margins alone.

 

Someone who needs more space than a hatch is not going to buy a hatch. Sedans are harder and harder to come by with some notable exceptions like the Camry and the Model 3.

 

And in some cases distributors don't even get to choose the stock mix they offer locally, it can be entirely out of their hands. 

 

You've also got the problem of there being very few 'small' A/B segment EVs, so if you want an EV, there's a high chance it's going to be an SUV or at least have the same wheelbase/footprint as one.


djtOtago
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  #3144553 9-Oct-2023 12:39
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It doesn't appear the last 5 pages or so of posts in this RUC topic have much to do with RUC, but more about an emissions tax. That is a completely different topic. Un following 😔


evilengineer
466 posts

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  #3144999 10-Oct-2023 16:49
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GV27:

 

evilengineer:

 

higher margin vehicles.

 

 

I don't think anyone at a sales floor level is steering customers to types of vehicle on sales margins alone.

 

Someone who needs more space than a hatch is not going to buy a hatch. Sedans are harder and harder to come by with some notable exceptions like the Camry and the Model 3.

 

And in some cases distributors don't even get to choose the stock mix they offer locally, it can be entirely out of their hands. 

 

You've also got the problem of there being very few 'small' A/B segment EVs, so if you want an EV, there's a high chance it's going to be an SUV or at least have the same wheelbase/footprint as one.

 

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/447925/aggressive-marketing-has-driven-rise-of-double-cab-ute-time-to-hit-the-brakes

 

The point being sales are driven by marketing and utes are heavily marketed by the vehicle manufacturers precisely because there's a much higher profit margin in it for them.

 

They'd much rather sell a $80K ute than a $80K EV given the relatively basic engineering and lack of an expensive battery pack in the former.

 

The lack of small cars and family hatches/sedans in the market is a function advertising spend and results in a feedback loop whereby the likes of Ford stop manufacturing the Escort and Focus to "concentrate" on SUVs and Utes where they coincidently make more money.  


mattwnz
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  #3145001 10-Oct-2023 17:09
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Those new Ranger Utes they are selling are massive and high, compared to the old utes of 10 years ago. They are more like the big utes they sell in the US. I remember when many tradies used to drive vans more often than Utes, but having a ute now seems to be a bit of a perk of being a tradie. But I don't think they are anymore convenient than a van. I have had a ute and they are good but quite limited, and if you install a canopy, they aren't exactly easy to access things in. Hopefully we will see some hybrid utes on teh market soo. There is no real reason Toyota can't build some because they have essentially switched some of their SUVs over to hybrids. Hybrids should be tax neutral. I think it would be a massive mistake to get rid of the levies on most petrol only vehicles , and a step backwards, but that now looks likely.

 

 




HarmLessSolutions
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  #3145002 10-Oct-2023 17:09
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evilengineer:

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/447925/aggressive-marketing-has-driven-rise-of-double-cab-ute-time-to-hit-the-brakes

 

The point being sales are driven by marketing and utes are heavily marketed by the vehicle manufacturers precisely because there's a much higher profit margin in it for them.

 

They'd much rather sell a $80K ute than a $80K EV given the relatively basic engineering and lack of an expensive battery pack in the former.

 

The lack of small cars and family hatches/sedans in the market is a function advertising spend and results in a feedback loop whereby the likes of Ford stop manufacturing the Escort and Focus to "concentrate" on SUVs and Utes where they coincidently make more money.  

 

EVs also lack the ongoing maintenance opportunities for the dealers that ICEs do. When we were in the market for a new Leaf 9 years back part of the downside of purchasing one from our local Nissan/Holden/Mazda/Suzuki franchisee was that they flatly refused to consider upskilling their service department in EVs so a truck transportation of a Leaf (Taranaki to Auckland) would be required every 6 months to keep the warranty up. 

 

As far as I know that situation still exists. We purchased an imported one as a result.





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mattwnz
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  #3145003 10-Oct-2023 17:14
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That is one reason they are moving into SaaS  with upgrades activated by software, and ongoing subscriptions. eg GPS. But even if you buy a new car, it often comes with upto 5 years free servicing, and people then may just go to a local garage for servicing, due to the cost of using a dealer. But EVs do still need some servicing.


HarmLessSolutions
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  #3145005 10-Oct-2023 17:23
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mattwnz:

 

That is one reason they are moving into SaaS  with upgrades activated by software, and ongoing subscriptions. eg GPS. But even if you buy a new car, it often comes with upto 5 years free servicing, and people then may just go to a local garage for servicing, due to the cost of using a dealer. But EVs do still need some servicing.

 

 

"Free" servicing is still work for their maintenance department staff. The 'free' reference just means the vehicle buyer pays for it included in the purchase price.

 

For EVs there is next to nothing to service so no return income for them. Polestar farewelled us when we took delivery of ours and said they'd see us in 2 years or 30,000kms.





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mattwnz
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  #3145012 10-Oct-2023 18:08
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Based in my experience with European cars and electrics failing after just 5 years, I am sure there will be a lot of work for them in the future with EVs. There is now a lot of complexity  in them, and lots of potentially failures. Just replacing a dash screen (which most new cars seem to have rather than dials) when it fails is going to be pricey, and whether they will even keep electric parts for older models will be interesting. Also they will have all the diagnostic tools, which many third party garages won't be able to afford to buy. So there is a lot of potential money in it for them. IMO this is one reason we need the right to repair laws in NZ.


tdgeek
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  #3145103 10-Oct-2023 21:04
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 "Free" servicing is still work for their maintenance department staff. The 'free' reference just means the vehicle buyer pays for it included in the purchase price.

 

For EVs there is next to nothing to service so no return income for them. Polestar farewelled us when we took delivery of ours and said they'd see us in 2 years or 30,000kms.

 

 

Servicing came up a while back for EV's. Nothing to service (well, brakes and wipers) but didn't someone say they were locked in to $700 annual servicing for a Tesla? (Not a bag on Tesla but new cars)


tdgeek
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  #3145116 10-Oct-2023 21:14
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mattwnz:

 

Based in my experience with European cars and electrics failing after just 5 years, I am sure there will be a lot of work for them in the future with EVs. There is now a lot of complexity  in them, and lots of potentially failures. Just replacing a dash screen (which most new cars seem to have rather than dials) when it fails is going to be pricey, and whether they will even keep electric parts for older models will be interesting. Also they will have all the diagnostic tools, which many third party garages won't be able to afford to buy. So there is a lot of potential money in it for them. IMO this is one reason we need the right to repair laws in NZ.

 

 

Not sure I buy that. An ICE engine is complex. My motorbike got a fault light on, and 45 minutes later it was electronically diagnosed to the O2 sensor.

 

EV's, well its an electrically driven rotor. (yes rotor not motor) 20 piece engine? Compared to 2000 for an ICE? 

 

Dash screen. Probably easier to replace than a car radio. Maybe it has a scan the engine and now up to date? (Just assuming) 

 

 

 

Just cos the engine is electric doesnt means its mind blowing. If I had a battery line trimmer, its just a simple electric motor that rotates. If I had a petrol line trimmer, that does ramp up the complexity. And fault costs. As long as the "actual" fault costs on electric arent magnified as its the latest tech. Electricity is very old tech


mattwnz
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  #3145151 11-Oct-2023 01:45
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tdgeek:

 

Just cos the engine is electric doesnt means its mind blowing. If I had a battery line trimmer, its just a simple electric motor that rotates. If I had a petrol line trimmer, that does ramp up the complexity. And fault costs. As long as the "actual" fault costs on electric arent magnified as its the latest tech. Electricity is very old tech

 

 

Funnily enough it isn't actually the engine or mechanics that I have had issues with  with european ICEs. It has almost all been electrics. eg failed central locking, failed auto-wipers so the wipers were unusable, dead lights in dash. Even a speedo that decided to stop working while driving, so I had no idea what speed I was doing.  Just to get the failed lights replaced by the Wellington agent in the dash was about 1k 10 years ago...I think that was a rip off. Since then I have stuck to Japanese made cars and no regrets.


jarledb
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  #3145153 11-Oct-2023 04:13
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tdgeek:

 

didn't someone say they were locked in to $700 annual servicing for a Tesla? (Not a bag on Tesla but new cars)

 

 

Where have you got that from?

 

There is no mandatory service plan for Teslas. Just take them in when you want them serviced or if there is an issue.

 

Here is the support document for vehicle maintenance

 

You will see there are no mandatory services. And the highest frequency item on their recommended maintenance service is changing cabin air filter ever 2 years.





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