RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

1 | ... | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | ... | 70

8086 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

2degrees

Lifetime subscriber

#3145175 11-Oct-2023 08:06

HarmLessSolutions:

As far as I know that situation still exists. We purchased an imported one as a result.

They started upskilling with three dealerships in 2018 - we had the official fixed battery firmware for 30kWh Leaf installed by Nissan at Wairau Park. Presumably in the five years since, and given they're selling them brand new now, they must have more than that surely?

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

AliExpress

Shop now on AliExpress (affiliate link).

MikeAqua

7769 posts

Uber Geek

#3147197 13-Oct-2023 14:01

evilengineer:

Got any other methods for discouraging "non essential" purchases of SUVs and Utes?

I don't think the govt should be involved in telling other people which vehicle they need, or which spanner, chainsaw ... beyond reasonable safety standards.

To me if it's a business purchase (incl. self employed), it should be exempt from the ute tax.

Private vehicles, no exemptions unless a person has a particular mobility or anatomical requirement. But expect some unintended consequences.

As I said earlier if you discourage a person's preferred leisure activities you need to consider the possible consequences of that. The impact on their well-being, and what they may choose to spend their time on instead. Those choices may not be good for them or society. IMO people owning vehicles that enable them to get into the outdoors to hunt fish, whatever is good thing. Also good for the industries it supports.

Some other things govt could do: -

1) Convert it's own extensive ICE fleets especially minister's cars (lead by example, money where mouth is) where practicable

2) Require local govt and Health Dept fleets to be EVs where practicable

3) Require govt funded or subsidised public transport vehicles to be EVs where reasonably practicable

4) Introduce emissions standards for small engines (generators, mopeds, tools etc).

5) Introduce something like the US emissions standards for marine engines (commercial and recreational)

6) Approve by legislation a whole lot of North Island renewable generation/storage capacity, govt build it if necessary, this will use of fossil fuels to make power.

7) Provide better positive incentives for conversion of fixed energy plant to electric. Right now they provide a limited subsidy, that addresses the equipment but doesn't address the often very high costs of getting network capacity to a site. Network capacity in the rural economy is an issue that contributes to businesses being reluctant to change to cleaner tech.

8) Consider an enabling regime with robust monitoring provisions to allow pyrolysis plants for converting some types of waste to fuel or producing electricity.

There is a general problem with an approach to environmental management that seeks to divide groups into 'good' and 'bad'. For example, in capital markets where so-called 'green' firms attract more capital than so-called 'brown' firms. The problem is the brown firms are the ones we need to change, and the less capital they have access too, the harder it is for them to change.

Mike

SaltyNZ

8086 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

2degrees

Lifetime subscriber

#3147201 13-Oct-2023 14:11

MikeAqua:

There is a general problem with an approach to environmental management that seeks to divide groups into 'good' and 'bad'. For example, in capital markets where so-called 'green' firms attract more capital than so-called 'brown' firms. The problem is the brown firms are the ones we need to change, and the less capital they have access too, the harder it is for them to change.

Isn't that what the libertarians call The Invisible Hand of the Free Market? Like, that's The Market telling the brown firms to die?

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

HarmLessSolutions

951 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#3147208 13-Oct-2023 14:18

SaltyNZ:

HarmLessSolutions:

As far as I know that situation still exists. We purchased an imported one as a result.

They started upskilling with three dealerships in 2018 - we had the official fixed battery firmware for 30kWh Leaf installed by Nissan at Wairau Park. Presumably in the five years since, and given they're selling them brand new now, they must have more than that surely?

Back in 2014 we were advised by Nissan NZ that the only servicing opportunities in NZ for Leafs were in Wellington, Auckland and Hawkes Bay, and "The cost of transport one way from New Plymouth to Auckland would be $211.14 + GST." So, close to $500 6 monthly to maintain the warranty = ~$5,000 added to the price to access the 5 year warranty. That cost together with the emissions load of that transporting made it a deal breaker.

It would be interesting to know whether Nissan's Leaf servicing network has improved in the meantime.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

wellygary

8193 posts

Uber Geek

#3147212 13-Oct-2023 14:34

MikeAqua:

Some other things govt could do: -

1) Convert it's own extensive ICE fleets especially minister's cars (lead by example, money where mouth is) where practicable

2) Require local govt and Health Dept fleets to be EVs where practicable

3) Require govt funded or subsidised public transport vehicles to be EVs where reasonably practicable

4) Introduce emissions standards for small engines (generators, mopeds, tools etc).

5) Introduce something like the US emissions standards for marine engines (commercial and recreational)

6) Approve by legislation a whole lot of North Island renewable generation/storage capacity, govt build it if necessary, this will use of fossil fuels to make power.

7) Provide better positive incentives for conversion of fixed energy plant to electric. Right now they provide a limited subsidy, that addresses the equipment but doesn't address the often very high costs of getting network capacity to a site. Network capacity in the rural economy is an issue that contributes to businesses being reluctant to change to cleaner tech.

8) Consider an enabling regime with robust monitoring provisions to allow pyrolysis plants for converting some types of waste to fuel or producing electricity.

There is a general problem with an approach to environmental management that seeks to divide groups into 'good' and 'bad'. For example, in capital markets where so-called 'green' firms attract more capital than so-called 'brown' firms. The problem is the brown firms are the ones we need to change, and the less capital they have access too, the harder it is for them to change.

Big chunks of that list have been tried- some failed, others are still "works in progress"

1,2 - Tried that-
The 2017 NZ First/Labour coalition agreement included this promise
"The government’s vehicle fleet, where practicable, to become emissions-free by 2025/26."
The Target was abandoned in 2019...
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/government-quietly-abandons-electric-vehicle-target

3, - That's current policy

"Furthermore, the government has mandated that all new buses procured after 01 July 2025 must have zero emissions at the exhaust pipe."
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/walking-cycling-and-public-transport/public-transport/public-transport-design-guidance/battery-electric-bus-charging/introduction/#:~:text=The%20government%20has%20announced%20a,emissions%20at%20the%20exhaust%20pipe.

6-Pretty much everything regarding generation is waiting on the Meridian/Tiwai decision, - If tiwai does go ( unlikely ) its cheaper to invest in the network than generation,

7- Limited? there is a fairly large "pot-o-cash" out there... ... NZ Steel are getting $140 million, ..

The conditional deal with NZ Steel will be part funded up to $140 million from the $650 million Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry (GIDI) Fund, which enables partnerships with industry to reduce their emissions. The rest will be funded directly by NZ Steel.
https://www.eeca.govt.nz/about/news-and-corporate/news/nzs-biggest-ever-emissions-reduction-project-unveiled/

and Fonterra $90 million

The Government is partnering with Fonterra to cut coal use at its dairy factories, delivering massive emissions reductions, and future-proofing New Zealand trade and exports.
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/government-partners-fonterra-cut-coal-use-boost-nz%E2%80%99s-climate-credentials

Dingbatt

6736 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3147260 13-Oct-2023 15:35

All very interesting, but what does it have to do with Road User Charges?

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

jarledb

Webhead
3248 posts

Uber Geek

Moderator

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3147283 13-Oct-2023 16:30

Dingbatt:

All very interesting, but what does it have to do with Road User Charges?

Amen, let us get back on topic.

Jarle Dahl Bergersen | Referral Links: Want $50 off when you join Octopus Energy? Use this referral code
Are you happy with what you get from Geekzone? Please consider supporting us by making a donation or subscribing.

MikeAqua

7769 posts

Uber Geek

#3148032 16-Oct-2023 10:50

SaltyNZ:

Isn't that what the libertarians call The Invisible Hand of the Free Market? Like, that's The Market telling the brown firms to die?

In principle it's fine for firm/sectors to go broke, unless they produce stuff you need. And of course, they employ people and other people may have their capital (including retirement/insurance funds) in those sectors/firms, or banks may have loans to those firms.

As an example a law firm or consultancy firm can easily be a green firm (they don't make anything), but it's much harder for a grower of food.

The ideal and less socio-economically disruptive outcome would be for firms/sectors adapt. But adaptation is expensive and so you need capital to invest in adaptation. And as I said, a punitive approach makes change harder/impossible.

Mike

Scott3

3914 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3148286 16-Oct-2023 23:30

I note the political party who made this proposal has done well in the election "will be in a position to form a government". So I guess it is just a matter of time for the roll out.

I am becoming concerned that there may be quite a time gap between the roll out for EV's and the remainder of the non RUC paying fleet. (an issue as EV's will pay 3x the road tax of an efficient petrol hybrid in that gap).

smac

333 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3148320 17-Oct-2023 08:28

Scott3:

I note the political party who made this proposal has done well in the election "will be in a position to form a government". So I guess it is just a matter of time for the roll out.

I am becoming concerned that there may be quite a time gap between the roll out for EV's and the remainder of the non RUC paying fleet. (an issue as EV's will pay 3x the road tax of an efficient petrol hybrid in that gap).

Well no, not really. As per the original posts, if the government do nothing then the legislation around this comes into effect, and EV's start paying RUC. It's only if they take action that this won't happen, and I suspect given the posturing around the clean car stuff they'll be quite happy to just do nothing and let that happen.

Scott3

3914 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3148516 17-Oct-2023 19:26

smac:

Well no, not really. As per the original posts, if the government do nothing then the legislation around this comes into effect, and EV's start paying RUC. It's only if they take action that this won't happen, and I suspect given the posturing around the clean car stuff they'll be quite happy to just do nothing and let that happen.

There are two different things at play here.

The end of the RUC exemption on EV's. You are correct that this will kick in automatically at a legislation level (1 April 2024 for light EV's, and 1 January 2026 for Heavy EV's). However, there will be some detail to work through as how the odometer reading at the start of the period will be established.
The transition of vehicles that currently pay road tax as part of petrol & LPG. This will require legislative change.

It is a bit of an oddity that the heavy EV & Light EV dates are different. Will be interesting to see if the the Heavy EV date will be allowed to stand, when light petrol cars start paying RUC.

traderstu

325 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3148572 17-Oct-2023 20:58

Scott3:

There are two different things at play here.

The end of the RUC exemption on EV's. You are correct that this will kick in automatically at a legislation level (1 April 2024 for light EV's, and 1 January 2026 for Heavy EV's). However, there will be some detail to work through as how the odometer reading at the start of the period will be established.
The transition of vehicles that currently pay road tax as part of petrol & LPG. This will require legislative change.

It is a bit of an oddity that the heavy EV & Light EV dates are different. Will be interesting to see if the the Heavy EV date will be allowed to stand, when light petrol cars start paying RUC.

Is this really a problem? This situation occurs every day of the week in the case of 2nd hand light diesel vehicles imported into NZ. When RUCs are purchased you nominate the starting odo reading. You must then display the label. If you are pulled over without an RUC label displayed you are in for the high jump.

Scott3

3914 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3148591 17-Oct-2023 23:07

traderstu:

Scott3:

There are two different things at play here.

The end of the RUC exemption on EV's. You are correct that this will kick in automatically at a legislation level (1 April 2024 for light EV's, and 1 January 2026 for Heavy EV's). However, there will be some detail to work through as how the odometer reading at the start of the period will be established.
The transition of vehicles that currently pay road tax as part of petrol & LPG. This will require legislative change.

It is a bit of an oddity that the heavy EV & Light EV dates are different. Will be interesting to see if the the Heavy EV date will be allowed to stand, when light petrol cars start paying RUC.

Is this really a problem? This situation occurs every day of the week in the case of 2nd hand light diesel vehicles imported into NZ. When RUCs are purchased you nominate the starting odo reading. You must then display the label. If you are pulled over without an RUC label displayed you are in for the high jump.

It's not insurmountable. Requiring a declaration of the current Odometer value from every EV owner on the 1st of April 2023 is the likely option.

I'm not familiar with the used import diesel process, but I note the systems behind it are likely sized for the load to be spread over the year. By April 2024, I project we have over 100,000 plug in car's in NZ. Unlikely our systems have capacity to deal with this at one time. Also in most cases the government will have access to the odometer reading for the entry certification to reconcile

Of course, this could be worked through (i.e. an amnesty on displaying the label for the first month, to give time for the printing & mailing operation to catch up, or perhaps a switch to a full digital system with abundant capacity).

And of course if we run under the current legislation, PHEV's will be eligible for petrol refunds. Could potentially be an extra 30,000 refund claims the petrol refund system (which uses paper forms) will need to be sized for.

scuwp

3871 posts

Uber Geek

#3148621 18-Oct-2023 08:15

Scott3:

And of course if we run under the current legislation, PHEV's will be eligible for petrol refunds. Could potentially be an extra 30,000 refund claims the petrol refund system (which uses paper forms) will need to be sized for.

I believe that will be the case for the short term otherwise it will be double dipping. A bit of an administrative burden all around, but the legislative change needed to create a new category for PHEV's will take time. And then there is the issue of how to derive a fair rate as the use case varies greatly.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

PolicyGuy

1704 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Lifetime subscriber

#3148630 18-Oct-2023 08:33

Scott3:

The end of the RUC exemption on EV's. You are correct that this will kick in automatically at a legislation level (1 April 2024 for light EV's, and 1 January 2026 for Heavy EV's). However, there will be some detail to work through as how the odometer reading at the start of the period will be established.

It's not insurmountable. Requiring a declaration of the current Odometer value from every EV owner on the 1st of April 2023 is the likely option.

I'm not familiar with the used import diesel process, but I note the systems behind it are likely sized for the load to be spread over the year. By April 2024, I project we have over 100,000 plug in car's in NZ. Unlikely our systems have capacity to deal with this at one time. Also in most cases the government will have access to the odometer reading for the entry certification to reconcile

Of course, this could be worked through (i.e. an amnesty on displaying the label for the first month, to give time for the printing & mailing operation to catch up, or perhaps a switch to a full digital system with abundant capacity).

And of course if we run under the current legislation, PHEV's will be eligible for petrol refunds. Could potentially be an extra 30,000 refund claims the petrol refund system (which uses paper forms) will need to be sized for.

The Briefing for the incoming Minister of Transport will make interesting reading.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that Waka Kotahi says it has made no specific preparations for this transition as it was not the policy of the government of the day to do so. And to say that they need a bazillion extra dollars to quickly: design, develop & implement the required administrative and IT systems; design & implement a public information / publicity / education campaign; liaise with NZ Post to develop & implement a plan to deliver 100,000 notices in March.
Or maybe quietly suggest to the Minister, that they could just postpone this for 12 months and roll it into the comprehensive review of RUCs the MoT already has under way.

Won't that be a fun submission for the new Minister to take to one of the first Cabinet meetings of the new Government ... not

1 | ... | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | ... | 70