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HarmLessSolutions
647 posts

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  #3182941 17-Jan-2024 11:07
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Technofreak:

 

mattwnz:

 

The fact that this is even being discussed as a solution just shows how ridiculous and backwards this new governments changes are. The whole point of the PHEV is that it can avoid any CO2 emissions for most local trips.

 

 

Actually I think the pricing for the PHEV is smart. I'd suggest the average driving profile for most car owners would allow a PHEV owner to complete nearly all trips within the range of the battery. A smart PHEV owner will pay much less for RUC and fuel tax than a BEV owner will in RUC.

 

A PHEV gives range flexibility and the ability to run only on electricity. One vehicle for both purposes. 

 

One vehicle for daily running about with no emmisions and reduced RUC but it can be used for the annual holiday trip.

 

The overwhelming majority of comments I've seen justifying PHEV ownership relates to the additional range provided by their ICE functionality. In other words people buy them to be able to do long journeys without the complications of public charging. That rationale will be countered by the amount of RUC paid by PHEVs when travelling beyond their battery range.





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Technofreak
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  #3182991 17-Jan-2024 11:17
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HarmLessSolutions:

 

The overwhelming majority of comments I've seen justifying PHEV ownership relates to the additional range provided by their ICE functionality. In other words people buy them to be able to do long journeys without the complications of public charging. That rationale will be countered by the amount of RUC paid by PHEVs when travelling beyond their battery range.

 

 

Correct.

 

However if people are buying a PHEV where the use case is they often exceed the battery range then I'd suggest they've bought a vehicle with the wrong type of energy source. 





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SaltyNZ
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  #3182993 17-Jan-2024 11:18
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HarmLessSolutions:

 

The overwhelming majority of comments I've seen justifying PHEV ownership relates to the additional range provided by their ICE functionality.

 

Exactly; there's no other reason to buy a PHEV.

 

 

 

 

In other words people buy them to be able to do long journeys without the complications of public charging. 

 

 

Not that that seems to stop PHEV owners sitting at old 50kW Tritium chargers for an hour trickle charging their tiny battery through the CHAdeMO port at AC speeds while BEV owners wait. *eyeroll*

 

 

 

 





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old3eyes
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  #3182994 17-Jan-2024 11:25
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MikeB4:

 

It wouldn't surprise me if the government decided that  and electric wheelchairs should pay RUCs. 

 

 

They,  mobility scooters are  registered in Australia. 





Regards,

Old3eyes


wellygary
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  #3182996 17-Jan-2024 11:28
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old3eyes:

 

They,  mobility scooters are  registered in Australia. 

 

 

Partially, QLD requires it... All other states don't ( at last look) 


lchiu7
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  #3183052 17-Jan-2024 12:08
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SaltyNZ:

 

HarmLessSolutions:

 

The overwhelming majority of comments I've seen justifying PHEV ownership relates to the additional range provided by their ICE functionality.

 

Exactly; there's no other reason to buy a PHEV.

 

 

Well I almost bought  PHEV (test drove both the Ford Escape and Mitsubish Eclipse) with the thought we would never drive more than about 50 km a day so could just charge at night.  Then I got persuaded I am now buying into two power trains (electric motor and ICE) so two lots of maintenance.

 

So I bought an ATTO3 instead. Just to I understand if you have a PHEV there is no way to know how many k's you are driving in petrol so you will be paying EV mileage charges (albiet at alower rate) and fuel excise tax.  That seems unfair but it's hard to sort out a fairer solution.


smac
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  #3183057 17-Jan-2024 12:16
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lchiu7:

 

Well I almost bought  PHEV (test drove both the Ford Escape and Mitsubish Eclipse) with the thought we would never drive more than about 50 km a day so could just charge at night.  Then I got persuaded I am now buying into two power trains (electric motor and ICE) so two lots of maintenance.

 

So I bought an ATTO3 instead. Just to I understand if you have a PHEV there is no way to know how many k's you are driving in petrol so you will be paying EV mileage charges (albiet at alower rate) and fuel excise tax.  That seems unfair but it's hard to sort out a fairer solution.

 

 

 

 

Well there is a fairer system, but the Govt shied away from it. I would assume because it would be an administrative nightmare.  The fairer system being charging PHEV's full rate RUC but letting them claim back any FED paid on fuel costs. 




BlakJak
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  #3183068 17-Jan-2024 12:40
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empacher48: This was always going to happen and at the same rate as light diesels.

I used to drive a Peugeot 407 2.0 diesel. The year up to the end of June 2023 (when I sold it) I had done 22,000km. Of that there was $1,690 RUC and $2,745 of diesel.

Since the 1st July 2023 I’ve been driving a Model 3, done 12,000km and spent about $350 of electricity. The RUC for that distance would be about $920. So assume I do 24,000km a year it would be $700 electricity and $1840 RUC.

Not including maintenance or any other expenses. The pug cost $4,435 and the model 3 should cost $2,540. So still cheaper to run the EV over a diesel.

 

 

I just want to note that this is interesting, thanks for posting it. I get about 14k per L of 91 octane in my Prius.

 

So that should be about $4600 for 24,000km which seems to make it fractionally more expensive than the diesel to run, which I suppose lines up. Looking for some comparable PHEV data, though I imagine that'd really depend on the driving pattern - commutes vs longer trips.




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BlakJak
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  #3183073 17-Jan-2024 12:53
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Technofreak:

HarmLessSolutions:

 

The overwhelming majority of comments I've seen justifying PHEV ownership relates to the additional range provided by their ICE functionality. In other words people buy them to be able to do long journeys without the complications of public charging. That rationale will be countered by the amount of RUC paid by PHEVs when travelling beyond their battery range.

 

 

Correct.

 

However if people are buying a PHEV where the use case is they often exceed the battery range then I'd suggest they've bought a vehicle with the wrong type of energy source. 

 

 

That's a bit strong. If you want to run on battery when commuting and short-tripping but want the option, in the same vehicle, to travel with a bit of range, without regular recharge capability that you might have at home (say, holiday, or some other long trip away from home) and the ability to use local, fast, refuel capabilities whilst in that situation... i'd say a PHEV is perfect.

 

 

The double-tax thing is going to cause some bleating but as others have noticed, it's hard to find a fair balance that's also practical to operate, and if you benchmark your TCO against a straight ICE, are PHEV's not going to be any worse, right?




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MikeB4
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  #3183088 17-Jan-2024 13:00
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With the current complexity of our national fleet maybe we should ditch the RUCs entirely and fund our roads etc from general taxation. 


Geektastic
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  #3183092 17-Jan-2024 13:16
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MikeB4:

With the current complexity of our national fleet maybe we should ditch the RUCs entirely and fund our roads etc from general taxation. 



Given that, according to IRD, less than 50% of tax payers pay net tax, the much-mentioned
’’fairness’ would appear to be missing if we did that.





MikeB4
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  #3183094 17-Jan-2024 13:17
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We purchased a PHEV with a desire to be as electrified as possible but still giving certainty. My disabilities mean that it is vital to my wellbeing that the vehicle is available 100% and a PHEV met that criteria. Approximately +/-70% of the time the vehicle is running on pure EV. With the new charges I will be paying RUCs+GST+excise on the Petrol. RUCs +GST on the electricity along with Insurance +GST, Registration and WOF+GST. 

 

I can reduce the costs considerably by dropping the PHEV and buying a pure ICE vehicle. The government has by actions told us we don't need to care about the planet.


ezbee
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  #3183113 17-Jan-2024 13:55
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Given how certain parts of the Government were very strong on cost benefit studies it would be nice to see what numbers they have on the % difference these charges would make. 
Given the relatively small numbers of vehicles.

 

There is also going to be the whole aspect of enforcement, debt collecting, side effects of some more avoiding warrants. I expect its not a huge windfall for all the trouble.

 

The Plug-In thing is especially silly as once you are doing any appreciable km-age you are on petrol anyway. Paying tax, once doing more than a commute. 
Never mind that distance on electric starts to fade with heavy battery cycling. 

 

I expect its really based on administrative costs making it not worth while unless its more than X$.
Which may point to why do it at all with the numbers of vehicles involved.

 

There are positive contributions to less pollution aside from Co2 thing which is especially important for cities.
Those short commuter trips while engine warms up you are the most polluting for petrol only vehicles.
Plus electric is not consuming foreign exchange in petrol imports which was a historical factor that could bite in future.


HarmLessSolutions
647 posts

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  #3183118 17-Jan-2024 14:14
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BlakJak:
Technofreak:

 

Correct.

 

However if people are buying a PHEV where the use case is they often exceed the battery range then I'd suggest they've bought a vehicle with the wrong type of energy source. 

 

That's a bit strong. If you want to run on battery when commuting and short-tripping but want the option, in the same vehicle, to travel with a bit of range, without regular recharge capability that you might have at home (say, holiday, or some other long trip away from home) and the ability to use local, fast, refuel capabilities whilst in that situation... i'd say a PHEV is perfect. The double-tax thing is going to cause some bleating but as others have noticed, it's hard to find a fair balance that's also practical to operate, and if you benchmark your TCO against a straight ICE, are PHEV's not going to be any worse, right?
Looking at the longer term all vehicles will be paying distance based RUCs with a corresponding removal of FET in the medium term according to Simeon & co. Assuming the 7.6c/km rate is extended to petrol vehicles it is probable that the PHEV rate will rise to that at the same time as with the removal of FETs there will be no reason for a discounted PHEV rate.

 

Seeing as how whatever method was used to cater for PHEVs dual 'fuel' capability is only going to be a short term fix I'd suggest that a simple change of RUC rate was regarded as an easier strategy than setting up a refund system that would be easy to defraud in any basic form.

 

The squeals currently will pale into insignificance compared to what we're in for when the blanket RUC net is cast, along assumedly with a carbon tax (ETS) rate to prevent fuel price reductions (sans FET) becoming an incentive for high consumption vehicles. It's going to be an entertaining year or two.





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old3eyes
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  #3183121 17-Jan-2024 14:22
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wellygary:

 

old3eyes:

 

They,  mobility scooters are  registered in Australia. 

 

 

Partially, QLD requires it... All other states don't ( at last look) 

 

 

Yeah QLD is where I saw them.. :-)





Regards,

Old3eyes


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