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HarmLessSolutions
617 posts

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  #3191394 6-Feb-2024 11:54
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SaltyNZ:

 

HarmLessSolutions:

 

The CCD applied to both NZ new vehicles and secondhand imports. Was that not also the case for the 'ute tax' being payable for both new and secondhand imports?

 

ETA: I suspect that I've misinterpreted your point with "new" vehicles. Yes I agree that taxing the fuel itself is the best way to limit use of it, in the same way the taxation of tobacco has reduced smoking prevalence.

 

 

 

 

Ditto; taxing the fuel more is the best way to deal with it. But the commission notes that in order for the ETS alone to have a meaningful impact, the price would need to be so high it would cripple the economy. Hence why money collected was being used to provide targeted grants to decarbonise major sources. I agree that ideally, the Glenbrook steel mill would've bought its own advanced electric furnace. But I'd rather my tax dollars be spent helping to ensure the planet remains a safe place to live than give tax cuts to people who already own more houses than they can live in.

 

NZ's emissions are heavily dominated by farming and the energy sectors which inturn are dominated by methane and transportation respectively so yes an effective (ETS) taxation introduction would have a huge economic impact. Also those two industry sectors have strong lobbying power so plenty of blowback to be dealt with if taxed too heavily quite apart from cost of living issues for the wider society.

 

Also worth evaluating the data from the flow charts that Lawrence Livermore produce. In particular the proportion of "Rejected Energy" which is essentially wasted as heat in the case of transportation and thermal electricity generation. The energy efficiency of EVs vs ICEVs is pretty stark in this regard, particularly with our high proportion of renewable electricity generation.





https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/


 
 
 

You will find anything you want at MightyApe (affiliate link).
Scott3

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  #3191412 6-Feb-2024 13:45
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mattwnz:

 

Scott3:

 



Toyota NZ will be the big winner out of this. Their fleet mix is near perfect to for the new RUC settings. With the exception of a couple of low volume performance models, basically everything petrol is hybrid only, or has a hybrid option, and with fuel consumption numbers such that they will pay a lot less RUC than an EV. All their Low range SUV's, Utes & Vans are diesel, and will benefit from the end of the clean car discount.

 

 

 

 

That is the reason why there is a 1 year waiting list to get a hybrid RAV4 

 



Should note that the 1 year wait is only if you want the the highest trim version of the Rav4 hybrid. Per Toyota's website, the base hybrid version has a wait of less than 3 months, and the Non hybrid version is in stock.

 

Buy yeah, Toyota absolutely hit it out of the park in terms of the spec sheet with the Rav4 Hybrid.

 

  • Sub $50k starting price
  • 163kW combined output
  • AWD on all trims
  • 1500kg tow rating on all trims
  • 5.3L/100km rated fuel consumption on 91RON.
  • Decent passenger and boot space

And it's not like the wait list is due to low supply. They were number 2 on the new cars sales chart last year, only behind the ranger...

As another poster has stated there is not really a pure EV competitor. To get a ~1500kg tow ranting in an EV, one needs to spend an extra 20 grand, and give up the AWD.... If AWD was essential for the buyer, before the launch of the Model Y Long range last month, one would need to spend around the $100k mark...

 

 

 

Of course with a fuel consumption of well under 9.3L /100km, the rav4 hybrid benefits greatly from current RUC settings (vs diesels's), and the new RUC settings (vs EV's)


shk292
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  #3191417 6-Feb-2024 13:58
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It's disappointing that none of the other manufacturers are bringing AWD hybrids to NZ. The choice seems to be RAV4 or Mitsubishi, with the latter now being disadvantaged by RUC. I decided last year that my next car is going to be a Rav4 hybrid, this change reinforces that.



Scott3

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  #3191501 6-Feb-2024 17:58
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shk292: It's disappointing that none of the other manufacturers are bringing AWD hybrids to NZ. The choice seems to be RAV4 or Mitsubishi, with the latter now being disadvantaged by RUC. I decided last year that my next car is going to be a Rav4 hybrid, this change reinforces that.


There is quite a range on the market now . All the below are hybrid AWD

Ford Escape ($56,490, 5.4L/100km, 95RON min)
Suzuki Vitara
Suzuki S-cross
Hyundai Tucson ($63,990, 169kW combined, 5.63L/100km)
Eclipse cross PHEV

 

But sadly if you don't want a PHEV (and I can see why not with the New RUC settings), The lower trims of the RAV4 win hands down in the value equation. Both the Suzuki's are crappy mild hybrids, and the Rav4 it is quite a bit cheaper than the lower trim escape & Tucson. I think the rav4 is a little bigger too.

 

Amazing that the Rav4 Hybrid has been on the market since 2019, and still has class leading fuel consumption, and on 91 RON to boot.

 

A bit of a testament as to how far ahead Toyota is with non plug in hybrid tech than their competitors.


I imagine you won't be the only person who was interested in a plug in car, but can't see value in it anymore given the RUC rates that are to be imposed.


mattwnz
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  #3192213 8-Feb-2024 02:57
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alasta:

 

the ute tax is that it only impacted new vehicles entering the fleet. An emissions tax on fuel is better because it also disincentivises utilisation of inefficient vehicles already in the fleet. 

 

 

 

 

Possibly. But an emissions tax also affects poorer people more, as they are more likely to be driving older fuel inefficient ICE cars and for longer . T While more wealthy people are more likely to be driving EVs or hybrids, so would pay no or less in tax for the same kilometers traveled. That inefficient older vehicle will be sold cheaper to a lower wage person who needs a car. We have to actually get it off the road.  

 

One could argue that RUCs will help with some of this, and it may but I can't see the government reducing petrol taxes enough to make it tax neutral, so poorer people will end up paying more in tax anyway. IMO RUCs for all is an easy way to generate more money off taxpayers without actually increasing any taxes, or bringing in a new tax, even though RUCs on all vehicles is essentially a new tax on petrol vehicles. It will be decades before the vehicle fleet is non reliant on petrol, due to the amount of time needed to replace the fleet. Plus even if the fleet could be replaced tomorrow with EVs, we wouldn't have the energy generation to fuel those EVs.


mattwnz
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  #3192215 8-Feb-2024 03:04
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Scott3:

 


I imagine you won't be the only person who was interested in a plug in car, but can't see value in it anymore given the RUC rates that are to be imposed.

 

 

In terms of money, yes you are right, but in terms of not wanting to drive and spout polluting smoke out the back of the car, and thinking of the future generations, that would be one of the appeals for those still wanting to buy an EV.  But IMO if EVs drop a lot in price, especially these small cheap Chinese EVs , and they can get down to 20k new, I can see quite a lot of people buying them as a small run about car.  But IMO NZ did take a big step backwards with the new gov, when they introduced the RUCs and removed the CCD which was a double whammy for EVs.


SaltyNZ
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  #3192242 8-Feb-2024 08:18
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mattwnz:

 

We have to actually get it off the road.  

 

 

 

 

Which was another part of the argument for the clean car scheme as it got more EVs onto the market sooner - new ones will work their way into the second-hand market, but it also applied to second-hand imports. And, crucially, it provided incentives for lower emission conventional or hybrid drive vehicles. And those Toyota Aquas were flying off the lot.

 

"Rich people" may be more interested in a brand new Model Y, but plenty of average people would have appreciated an extra discount on their very ordinary economical Toyota Aqua purchase.

 

 





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richms
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  #3192307 8-Feb-2024 10:40
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mattwnz:

 

Possibly. But an emissions tax also affects poorer people more, as they are more likely to be driving older fuel inefficient ICE cars and for longer . T While more wealthy people are more likely to be driving EVs or hybrids, so would pay no or less in tax for the same kilometers traveled. That inefficient older vehicle will be sold cheaper to a lower wage person who needs a car. We have to actually get it off the road.  

 

 

That's not really the case. There is an ample supply of toyota aquas that are available for "poorer people" to get - there is plenty of assistance for them to get one if genuinely needed.

 

Sure, you will see some people rolling around in old holdens on inappropriate wheels with a bad matt paint job and obnoxious exhaust on it, but that is their choice, not something they are forced to do.





Richard rich.ms

RUKI
1383 posts

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  #3192669 8-Feb-2024 23:07
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National announced today the removal of the Auckland Fuel Tax from June this year. Would that be a prelude to introducing RUC for ALL straight after?

mudguard
1780 posts

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  #3192758 9-Feb-2024 07:15
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RUKI: National announced today the removal of the Auckland Fuel Tax from June this year. Would that be a prelude to introducing RUC for ALL straight after?


I just can't see it. It comes up time and time again in this thread. There's not a general dislike for RUCS, it's more the process. There's no way the system can cope with a million plus people suddenly logging on and needing little white RUC labels posted to them

Might revive the postal service though!

cddt
754 posts

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  #3192767 9-Feb-2024 07:51
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HarmLessSolutions:

 

Also worth evaluating the data from the flow charts that Lawrence Livermore produce. In particular the proportion of "Rejected Energy" which is essentially wasted as heat in the case of transportation and thermal electricity generation. The energy efficiency of EVs vs ICEVs is pretty stark in this regard, particularly with our high proportion of renewable electricity generation.

 

 

Questionable data for NZ. https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/sites/flowcharts/files/styles/orig/public/ENERGY_2017_NEWZEALAND.png?itok=fg3Y9sgG 

 

Shows twice as much energy from geothermal going into electricity production as from hydro? 


  #3192770 9-Feb-2024 08:13
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RUKI: National announced today the removal of the Auckland Fuel Tax from June this year. Would that be a prelude to introducing RUC for ALL straight after?

 

Not a chance, I'd say - NZTA / Waka Kotahi would need at least six months, more likely a year's notice to scale up the existing paper tag based system. A fully electronic system will undoubtedly require legislation so it's more like a two to three lead in time.

 

What this means is that I (and all the other non-Auckland taxpayers) will have to pay for various Auckland roading and public transport projects that Aucklanders were going to pay for through their regional petrol tax.
Thanks so much, Mr Luxon 😡


SaltyNZ
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  #3192774 9-Feb-2024 08:25
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PolicyGuy:

 

Thanks so much, Mr Luxon 😡

 

 

 

 

 

But ... isn't that what you utebros all voted for?

 

    -- Transport Minister Simeon Brown





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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


Dingbatt
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  #3192775 9-Feb-2024 08:27
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PolicyGuy:

 

What this means is that I (and all the other non-Auckland taxpayers) will have to pay for various Auckland roading and public transport projects that Aucklanders were going to pay for through their regional petrol tax.
Thanks so much, Mr Luxon 😡

 



 

Yes, thanks Mr Luxon for carrying through on an election promise.

 

I’d love to see a breakdown of how much of the FET collected in Auckland is spent in Auckland. As I understand it, if the FET was only spent where it was collected, half of South Island roads would be unsealed.





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996


old3eyes
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  #3192777 9-Feb-2024 08:38
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mattwnz:

 

Scott3:

 



Toyota NZ will be the big winner out of this. Their fleet mix is near perfect to for the new RUC settings. With the exception of a couple of low volume performance models, basically everything petrol is hybrid only, or has a hybrid option, and with fuel consumption numbers such that they will pay a lot less RUC than an EV. All their Low range SUV's, Utes & Vans are diesel, and will benefit from the end of the clean car discount.

 

 

 

 

That is the reason why there is a 1 year waiting list to get a hybrid RAV4 

 

 

It's been like that for some time  now. 





Regards,

Old3eyes


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