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SaltyNZ
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  #3194689 13-Feb-2024 14:43
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Ge0rge: Ah ok, so it is derogatory. So someone couldn't be both then?

 

 

 

Ask Douglas Adams.





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smac
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#3194693 13-Feb-2024 14:46
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SaltyNZ:

 

Ge0rge: Ah ok, so it is derogatory. So someone couldn't be both then?

 

 

 

Ask Douglas Adams.

 

 

Weeeell to be fair, I think that's me! I drive a 2012 Leaf, and a 2008 4.0L Falcon (sold the V8 a couple years back....)


SaltyNZ
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  #3194695 13-Feb-2024 14:49
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smac:

 

SaltyNZ:

 

Ge0rge: Ah ok, so it is derogatory. So someone couldn't be both then?

 

 

 

Ask Douglas Adams.

 

 

Weeeell to be fair, I think that's me! I drive a 2012 Leaf, and a 2008 4.0L Falcon (sold the V8 a couple years back....)

 

 

 

 

Yeah we had a Leaf and/or Tesla and a Pajero for several years. But replaced the Pajero with an MG ZS EV when it had it's third major oil leak + bonus dead alternator. At least I managed to sell it for enough to cover the full tank of petrol I put in it the day before. :-/





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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.




HarmLessSolutions
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  #3194696 13-Feb-2024 14:52
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smac:

 

Ge0rge: Ah ok, so it is derogatory. So someone couldn't be both then?

 

Weeeell to be fair, I think that's me! I drive a 2012 Leaf, and a 2008 4.0L Falcon (sold the V8 a couple years back....)

 

Likewise, after buying our first Leaf back in 2014 I soon became convinced that our Commodore SW would eventually be replaced by an EV that could tow and travel out of province. It took 10 years for my stars to align in terms of finances and the arrival of the Polestar2 and voila.

 

As is often said, 'once you drive an EV you rarely go back to an ICEV'.





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RUKI
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  #3194785 13-Feb-2024 17:22
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some car dealers could start to be competitive and offer EVs / PHEVs with 2.000kms (or more) of prepaid RUC similar to ICE cars sold with "full tank of gas" ;) they have to pay for the first installment anyways as the ODO is clicking after initial compliance and during all those test drives... Buyers have to be vigilant to check the RUC being paid on fresh imports...




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Dingbatt
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  #3194797 13-Feb-2024 17:56
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RUKI: some car dealers could start to be competitive and offer EVs / PHEVs with 2.000kms (or more) of prepaid RUC similar to ICE cars sold with "full tank of gas" ;) they have to pay for the first installment anyways as the ODO is clicking after initial compliance and during all those test drives... Buyers have to be vigilant to check the RUC being paid on fresh imports...

 

Already seen a dealer offering 5000km of RUCs on a Mitsi Eclipse Cross PHEV. Which, I guess is only $265+admin so that will probably come out of your trade in.





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996


mudguard
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  #3194853 13-Feb-2024 20:40
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johno1234: It’s only a little more fuel and almost zero more maintenance in my experience. Weight, driving style and tyre pressure have a larger economy impact. The big cost is price therefore interest and depreciation.

I have stuck with awd for a long time for towing boats, skiing/snow and mainly safety.

Modern awd is safer and more predictable. I once attended an Audi Quattro Experience day and it really rammed this home when you performed scenarios in both awd and fwd cars.


At the risk of getting too far off topic, the thing I don't understand about the benefits of 4WD, is that once you're in trouble, how does it actually help?
Say you come into a left hand corner to fast for the conditions, be it slick from rain or perhaps ice, the instant you get off the throttle and onto the brakes surely it does not matter which wheels are driven.
You will understeer or oversteer and not be able to do anything about it with the throttle.

Obviously any situation where driving four wheels in a positive manner, say in low grip situations where there is a genuine risk of slipping (a skifield access road in snow, or slippery boat ramp) then no problem. Same with spirited driving then there's an advantage, but I don't see this so much as a safety feature. Does a 4WD car do a moose test better than FWD or RWD cars?





tweake
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  #3194859 13-Feb-2024 21:38
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mudguard: 

At the risk of getting too far off topic, the thing I don't understand about the benefits of 4WD, is that once you're in trouble, how does it actually help?
Say you come into a left hand corner to fast for the conditions, be it slick from rain or perhaps ice, the instant you get off the throttle and onto the brakes surely it does not matter which wheels are driven.
You will understeer or oversteer and not be able to do anything about it with the throttle.

Obviously any situation where driving four wheels in a positive manner, say in low grip situations where there is a genuine risk of slipping (a skifield access road in snow, or slippery boat ramp) then no problem. Same with spirited driving then there's an advantage, but I don't see this so much as a safety feature. Does a 4WD car do a moose test better than FWD or RWD cars?


 

remember when Subaru ran adds claiming their awd cars where safer, then those ads disappeared and no one advertises that anymore.

 

basically it doesn't make it safer. however modern ecu controlled awd coupled with stability control can help a bit. it can help wheels that start slipping not to break traction. the real big advantage is being able to handle slippery conditions. stop go traffic up greasy wet tarseal can catch people out. not to mention gravel roads etc. driving on grass or sand etc.

 

btw you can control understeer/oversteer with the throttle. steer with the throttle is fairly "normal". 


Scott3

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  #3194876 14-Feb-2024 00:20
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On AWD / 4WD, it has got to have been one of the major marketing successes in history. Somehow it seems a material chunk of new car buyers consider it a feature they desire. This is far more prevalent than in my childhood.

 

Personally for on road use I consider AWD a performance feature (compared to FWD) - It allows you to accelerate faster than you could with the front wheels alone.

 

On safety, it always seems to be AWD / 4WD that I see in ditches on the way to the ski field. I suspect either the car's greater grip under acceleration (or the drivers belief in the AWD / 4WD system), causes them to travel faster than other car's in marginal conditions and hence have more issues.

That said, with the relative demise of RWD (ice) vehicles, I know at least one person that brought a AWD car simply because there wasn't anything they liked available in RWD.

Another interesting thing to note many brands only offer certain vehicles as AWD / 4WD in NZ. In the Philippines, all the thai built ute base SUV's (Everest, Fortuner etc) are available as 2WD, but in NZ they are strictly 4x4 only. In NZ Toyota only offers the Highlander in AWD (despite the same factory producing FWD versions of the same car)

 

 

 

Oddly the importance of tires is largely missing from the dialog. Some tires (weather through poor design, or aging) are just way less grippy in the wet.

I also note the comment that AWD is often a retentively cheap upgrade, with relatively low ongoing costs, so the opportunity cost of ticking that box is minimal for many. In the case of my AWD car, the AWD was a very minor point in my decision making, commodore wagons having issues with engine timing chain stretch was much bigger for example.

RUKI: @scott3 re: AWD - fun fact: I have been driving various cars in extreme conditions for many years, but never had AWD/4WD. NZ roads in comparison to what I had experienced (sub zero temperatures, deep snow, ice and over 25 degrees inclinations on a daily basis) is a ballroom dancing floor - smooth ride all the way (with rare gravel AKA metal to some resorts).
IMO - AWD/4WD are overrated. Maybe the only application for them is to tow a boat which I still have to try one day...

 

The only 4wd recommended public roads I can think of driving on in NZ were on great barrier island, And they had concrete on all the steep bits, don't think I engaged 4wd on our rental car for them (but did need to use 4wd for the driveway to our accommodation.

One of the reasons AWD/4wd is desirable is to get past chains OR 4wd restrictions at ski fields & south island alpine passes. But this is largely a convenance thing, to avoid the chore of fitting chains.

Should note that NZ is a bit unusual in that we don't bother with winter tires, which are standard in much of the world that gets serious winter conditions.


On towing, I have done plenty of Light - Medium towing of boats etc. As long as you are launching from a concrete ramp & don't need to drag the trailer up a hill on the grass (or across a soft field), 2wd is fine.

That said, you don't want to push the limits with a FWD car. Trailers put 5 - 10% of their total weight as downforce on the towbar. This means there is a lot more weight than normal on the rear axle, and a lot less on the front axle. I did once tow a boat far too large for the FWD car I was driving, I deliberately changed my route to avoid a point where I would need to come to a complete stop and depart forward uphill.

 

RWD is fine for towing. Semi trucks are basically all RWD, and RWD utes get the same tow rating as the 4x4 versions.

 

 

 

mudguard: 

At the risk of getting too far off topic, the thing I don't understand about the benefits of 4WD, is that once you're in trouble, how does it actually help?
Say you come into a left hand corner to fast for the conditions, be it slick from rain or perhaps ice, the instant you get off the throttle and onto the brakes surely it does not matter which wheels are driven.
You will understeer or oversteer and not be able to do anything about it with the throttle.

Obviously any situation where driving four wheels in a positive manner, say in low grip situations where there is a genuine risk of slipping (a skifield access road in snow, or slippery boat ramp) then no problem. Same with spirited driving then there's an advantage, but I don't see this so much as a safety feature. Does a 4WD car do a moose test better than FWD or RWD cars?



If you manage to miss tree's & ditches as you leave the road, you will have greater odds of being able to drive yourself back onto the road than a 2wd car :)

 

Might have some safety advantage if you need to accelerate quickly in low traction conditions. I.e. you are turning right with poor sightlines meaning you can only see oncoming traffic a short distance away.


Dingbatt
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  #3194886 14-Feb-2024 07:14
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Off topic.





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996


johno1234
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  #3194900 14-Feb-2024 08:21
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mudguard:
johno1234: It’s only a little more fuel and almost zero more maintenance in my experience. Weight, driving style and tyre pressure have a larger economy impact. The big cost is price therefore interest and depreciation.

I have stuck with awd for a long time for towing boats, skiing/snow and mainly safety.

Modern awd is safer and more predictable. I once attended an Audi Quattro Experience day and it really rammed this home when you performed scenarios in both awd and fwd cars.


At the risk of getting too far off topic, the thing I don't understand about the benefits of 4WD, is that once you're in trouble, how does it actually help?
Say you come into a left hand corner to fast for the conditions, be it slick from rain or perhaps ice, the instant you get off the throttle and onto the brakes surely it does not matter which wheels are driven.
You will understeer or oversteer and not be able to do anything about it with the throttle.

Obviously any situation where driving four wheels in a positive manner, say in low grip situations where there is a genuine risk of slipping (a skifield access road in snow, or slippery boat ramp) then no problem. Same with spirited driving then there's an advantage, but I don't see this so much as a safety feature. Does a 4WD car do a moose test better than FWD or RWD cars?



It's harder to get into trouble as engine acceleration and deceleration over all wheels means balance and no individual wheel losing traction. If the car does get out of shape simply foot off the gas and brakes allows it to steer and recover far better than 2wd for same reason.
The practical scenarios really did prove this to us.

richms
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  #3194943 14-Feb-2024 10:51
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mudguard: 

At the risk of getting too far off topic, the thing I don't understand about the benefits of 4WD, is that once you're in trouble, how does it actually help?
Say you come into a left hand corner to fast for the conditions, be it slick from rain or perhaps ice, the instant you get off the throttle and onto the brakes surely it does not matter which wheels are driven.
You will understeer or oversteer and not be able to do anything about it with the throttle.

Obviously any situation where driving four wheels in a positive manner, say in low grip situations where there is a genuine risk of slipping (a skifield access road in snow, or slippery boat ramp) then no problem. Same with spirited driving then there's an advantage, but I don't see this so much as a safety feature. Does a 4WD car do a moose test better than FWD or RWD cars?

 

It really needs decent stability control to be any safer, otherwise its just making it a 50/50 which end of the car will lose traction when you overcook it. EV's are even better since the torque control is much more instant than with an ICE that can only brake the wheels and hope.

 

Model Y dual motor completely overdoing it around a corner and you wouldn't know other than a bit of funny noise and the yellow "you're having too much fun" indicator on the screen lighting up. My RWD 3 doing the same thing gets very violent shakes doing the same type of correction.





Richard rich.ms

SaltyNZ
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  #3194996 14-Feb-2024 11:00
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richms:

 

 the yellow "you're having too much fun" indicator on the screen lighting up.

 

 

 

 

This is my new name for it: the TMF indicator.





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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


RUKI
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  #3195901 15-Feb-2024 15:34
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RUC Label on the glass is like WOF / Licence label. It is there, but you rarely if ever look at it. How many people missed those deadlines?
Some Instrument Clusters (aka Combination Meter or Speedometer) have adjustable (ODO based) reminders for oil, tire and maintenance.
Mazda CX-5/8 (Atenza) 2014+ has that. Guess diesel Mazda owners never miss RUC deadline.
Any other make/models have that feature in the cluster?
P.S. Some Japanese Imports (e.g. many Toyota models) have reminders built into navigation units which people usually swap for aftermarket ones.




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