NZs stupidest road

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#3197480 19-Feb-2024 13:16

Whenever there is a discussion about driver behaviour, I fall back to the standard "Have you ever met a nz driver who doesn't describe their driving as above average"

Why do we spend money on barriers, because nz drivers are poor (yes I've driven overseas).

Look at the moaning about speed cameras.

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GV27

5866 posts

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#3197489 19-Feb-2024 14:17

afe66: Whenever there is a discussion about driver behaviour, I fall back to the standard "Have you ever met a nz driver who doesn't describe their driving as above average"

Ah yes, the old "it's everyone else who sucks" way people rationalise everyone thinking they're 'better than average'.

I wouldn't say I'm above average, or even average. I can do the basics like a drive a car without anyone dying, but do I indicate enough before changing lanes, do I not move out of the outside lane after passing quickly enough, do I drive rigidly to the urban speed limit? No, and realistically very few people do.

People conflate 'how good a driver they are' with 'how fast they drive on urban roads' despite years of people like Greg Murphy telling them "that's not how that works" people still think overtaking cars on the wrong side of the road at 140kmh is something they're having to do because other people are the problem.

sen8or

1761 posts

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#3197580 19-Feb-2024 16:11

Its quite possible to drive safely at speeds that exceed the posted speed limit on quite a number of roads 99.999% of the time, but that .001% of the time is what makes up the statistics. Read a post somewhere the other day "speed has never killed a single person on the road, its the rapid rate of deceleration that gets them", I get both the humour and the message.

Try being a rep on the roads for any length of time and you'll see a complete mix of driver behaviour, more bad than good, so saying that you are "an average driver", isn't really that high of a benchmark. When repping, on any given day I'd see -

Cars squeezing past the truck at the end of the passing lane, all but forcing it off the road (or having it push them into oncoming traffic) because they just had to get past

Cars taking their sweet fanny annie time on a passing lane, meandering past the one car like they are driving miss daisey, ignoring the lineup of cars behind them also trying to pass.

Accelerating as you hit a passing lane as not to dare let someone get infront of you, despite losing complete ability to drive when you get to a bend.

Crossing centre line on a straight road (cellphone, adjusting stereo etc)

Tailgating

etc etc etc

Yes, our roads are a big issue, if we had more of the country accessed from a few express ways like the Auckland/Hamilton one, there'd be a lot less carnage, but we don't and realistically, we can't (cost and land use), so we have to make do with what we've got.

sir1963

3206 posts

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#3197587 19-Feb-2024 16:23

Bring back Rail and get the oversize trucks off the road.

Electrify the whole thing and double track the main trunk.

Unify the electrical systems for electric trains/commuter trains

Force anyone with more than 3 tickets, at fault crash drivers, etc to undergo further driver training and they do not get their licence back until they have passed it.

And yes, those aunt daisy drivers should also be ticketed more frequently and more publicly.

If you skill level is such you need/want to driver more slowly, you have an obligation to pull over and let others past.

JimmyH

2886 posts

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#3197611 19-Feb-2024 17:26

sir1963:

OR, actually do anything about the bad drivers.

Why not have lifetime bans

Why not limit the power to weight ratio of cars for new drivers, ie give them a nana mobile , or for bad drivers

Why not 100% stop modification (wheels, exhaust, stereo , suspension, etc) from factory spec.

Why not make having a valid licence for a class of vehicles mandatory to be able to buy such a vehicle (carve out for some businesses)

Why not make heavy fines for people who sell vehicles to unlicensed drivers or loan them a car

Why not make finance impossible to get for a vehicle you are not licensed for

Why not tell insurers of these crimes so they can adjust insurance premiums, and make insurance compulsory

Why not take the private vehicles from people who steal someone else's car , even if its mum and dads car

Why not publicly name/shame/dox these people, if that is the tool that works for them.

Why not garner their wages/benefits from day one after a fine/conviction

Why not make paying the fines/etc compulsory BEFORE the car is returned from impound, and if not in 3 months, crush the car.

Why not seize all the vehicles of people who attend illegal boy racing events

Why is it we accept hundreds killed every year by vehicles when we do not accept it by other weapons ?

Many of the things on your list are excessive.

"Why not limit the power to weight ratio of cars for new drivers, ie give them a nana mobile , or for bad drivers". That would prevent many drivers, particularly in rural areas, from driving what they need to drive or driving the only vehicle they have access to.

"Why not 100% stop modification (wheels, exhaust, stereo , suspension, etc) from factory spec.". If it compromises safety, then a modification should be a warrant fail. If it doesn't, why ban it. How is it safer if I can't fit shiny wheels or replace the stereo in my car with a better one?

"Why not make having a valid licence for a class of vehicles mandatory to be able to buy such a vehicle (carve out for some businesses)" .Because you don't need a valid licence to own a vehicle, you need a valid relevant licence to drive one on road. I have driven vehicles I wasn't licenced to drive (a tractor) on a farm. I wasn't on the road, so no issue. If I was stopped driving it on the road I would have had an issue.

"Why not make heavy fines for people who sell vehicles to unlicensed drivers or loan them a car" Because, again, you don't need a valid licence to own a vehicle, you need a valid relevant licence to drive one on road. When I was a student and didn't yet own a car I had an elderly relative who had their licence pulled (medical reasons) but still owned, registers and insured a car. A couple of the family, me included, used to use it to drive them around and get their shopping for them. If it died, they would have purchased another one, despite having no licence. All perfectly reasonable.

"Why not make finance impossible to get for a vehicle you are not licensed for". Because, again, you don't need a valid licence to own a vehicle. Plus, finance from whom (would a loan from dad count?).

"Why not take the private vehicles from people who steal someone else's car , even if its mum and dads car". Um, because that penalises the person who hasn't done anything wrong. Let's say I lend my sister my car, not knowing that she will (hypothetically) later steal a car while out on a Friday night. Why should my car be taken by the state? Why select taking my car and not something else I have loaned her - TV, circular saw, weed whacker or a DVD?

"Why not publicly name/shame/dox these people, if that is the tool that works for them." If convicted, your name is (usually) published. That's probably the right approach.

"Why not seize all the vehicles of people who attend illegal boy racing events". Fine. If it's their vehicle. How would you feel is (say) your child took your vehicle out, was a mere spectator at an event without participating, and so the vehicle you need for your livelihood was seized?

"Why is it we accept hundreds killed every year by vehicles when we do not accept it by other weapons ?". We don't. You can be charged with murder or manslaughter for they way you drove. Just like you can with a gun. Vehicles and guns both cause harm, but are both legal (with restrictions such as age limits and licencing) because they also have beneficial and legitimate uses.

MadEngineer

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#3197672 19-Feb-2024 21:17

I think that reference of power to weight ratio is a nod to what they do in Australia for their provisional licenses: "has a power to tare mass ratio (PMR) of greater than 130 kilowatts per tonne". This still allows you to drive a big V6 sedan

With regards to if it's required for work - well they have exceptions for that

You're not on Atlantis anymore, Duncan Idaho.

sen8or

1761 posts

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#3197708 20-Feb-2024 08:04

I have no issue with lower power ratings for learner / restricted drivers. They do it for motorcycles (250cc for learners), so the same concept could be applied to cars. They also should have R plates, same as they do L plates, to indicate a restricted license holder. Yes, they are allowed to drive by themselves under certain conditions, but they are by no means experienced enough to cope with any given number of situations that may arise, a R plate would help indicate to other motorists that the person driving may not be aware of things. It would also be an easy spot for police to check on license compliance.

mudguard

2066 posts

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#3197713 20-Feb-2024 08:18

They don't do it anymore for motorcycles. They changed it a few years ago. You can ride up to 650cc on a learners now.
It's a much better system.
Once upon a time you had to pay silly money for a thrashed 250cc bike that you on sold to the next learner for the same money.
And jumped straight on a litre bike.

NB the 650s are power restricted so it's not like a 600 of yesteryear.

As for cars, you'd just create the same thing. Once upon a time it was virtually impossible to insure someone under 25 for a turbo vehicle because generally turbo=WRX etc. Now your average family car is turbo due to emissions. The Honda CRV is a 1.5L turbo now. So I presume insurance has had to reflect this.

Making all learners drive say sub 1600cc NA cars would just create a weird situation like the old 250cc bikes.

As for speed limits, again I essentially drive professionally for a living and it hasn't bothered me. I'll caveat that by saying that technically I'm never in a rush or driving in high traffic situations, say doing the Napier Taupo road on a long weekend etc.

frankv

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#3197907 20-Feb-2024 14:16

sen8or:

Try being a rep on the roads for any length of time and you'll see a complete mix of driver behaviour, more bad than good, so saying that you are "an average driver", isn't really that high of a benchmark.

I disagree... I think that 99% of the time, 95% of drivers are just fine. And, in fact 99% of the time, those 95% are above average. Because that 1% of the time they're doing something *really* stupid and dangerous, and the other 5% are really bad, both of which shift the average way down.

sir1963

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#3197933 20-Feb-2024 14:56

frankv:

sen8or:

Try being a rep on the roads for any length of time and you'll see a complete mix of driver behaviour, more bad than good, so saying that you are "an average driver", isn't really that high of a benchmark.

I disagree... I think that 99% of the time, 95% of drivers are just fine. And, in fact 99% of the time, those 95% are above average. Because that 1% of the time they're doing something *really* stupid and dangerous, and the other 5% are really bad, both of which shift the average way down.

Statistically 50% of drivers are below average.

It then comes down to what acceptable risk do these below average drivers pose to everyone else.
The problem with a driving test is that people drive to pass the test, once that is over they revert to their "low bar".
Roads are fairly much made so that some high percentage of errors are recoverable to the majority of drivers, or simply come under the annoyance factor (slow drivers speeding up in passing lanes). Then there is the percentage that "get away with it" because the other driver is more skilled and avoids the accident.

But there is a percentage of drivers who should permanently lose their licence . Every near miss is not because they are at fault and the other driver avoided them, it's instead seen as an affirmation that they are a great driver.
They habitually speed, cut corners, race other drivers, pass dangerously.

Look at how people turn into a double lane road from a single lane one, a lane percentage (25% ?) turn into the far lane.
Look at how people drive around mall carparks, completely ignoring the markings on the roadway so they end up going the wrong way in a one way part of the carpark.
I have had people park in the roadway, blocking traffic, so they go and put their parking card through the machine, and its not just once I have seen this.
There are the people who park in handicapped parking
The ones who run red lights, fail to indicate, the ones who speed up way before the new speed limit. (For those who know palmy I regularly see people who think the 60kph starts at Te Aweawe street lights as opposed to the far end of the bridge.)
The ones who will speed and weave in and out of lanes to "get ahead", follow too close, fail to indicate, Fail to maintain their vehicle, fail to know how to drive at night safely.
And best of all, look at the number of dead, in the vast majority of cases it was not an "accident" it was someone at fault. The number of injured is higher, and the number of non injury accidents is higher, still the vast majority someone was at fault.
The highest number is those who get away with it, but someone was still at fault.

How many people know that the reflectors on road markers are yellow for the right hand side of the road and white on the left hand side ?

Motor vehicle crashes cost NZ about $10 Billion a year.

Ge0rge

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#3197939 20-Feb-2024 15:14

Bollocks to "average". You'll never get everybody to be above average drivers, because half have to be below. Half of all F1 drivers are below average, as are half of all V8 super car drivers. It's a flawed question and measure when it comes to something Iike driving ability.

We could however work towards everybody being at least good

dimsim

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#3197966 20-Feb-2024 16:08

NZ has pretty rubbish drivers full stop.

We've learnt to drive on open roads with little traffic and I think due to this, most drivers think they own the bit of road they’re driving on.

I'm sure we've all experienced waiting to pull out of a driveway or service station etc on a congested road and drivers will literally speed up to not let you and then stop directly in front of you blocking your exit , while avoiding eye contact at all costs (because I was here first, you wait for me kind of attitude) Pretty much along the same lines of speeding up and not wanting people to overtake.

If you've driven in the UK or Europe you will have noticed there's none of that. Common courtesy exists where drivers flash their lights and let you pull out. It's a kind of we're all in the same boat together attitude and blocking your exit isn’t achieving anything other than pissing someone off. They also keep to the left/right, don’t hog the fast lane and generally follow the flow of traffic whatever that may be. They also know how to work roundabouts properly; most likely due to the fact they are literally everywhere and in all sizes.

I brought that UK/Euro attitude home with me many years ago and even to this day, slowing down, gesturing to pullout or giving a flash of my lights to indicate im giving way to them is met with general astonishment and disbelief that another road use could be so courteous. So much so that they just sit there like lemons and wait for you to slowly drive past. I could stop in the middle of the road and make a greater point of this, but that would potentially hold up traffic behind me which isn’t the object.

tweake

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#3198007 20-Feb-2024 18:09

JimmyH:

"Why is it we accept hundreds killed every year by vehicles when we do not accept it by other weapons ?". We don't. You can be charged with murder or manslaughter for they way you drove. Just like you can with a gun. Vehicles and guns both cause harm, but are both legal (with restrictions such as age limits and licencing) because they also have beneficial and legitimate uses.

i'll call you out on this.

kiwis have an attitude of "its just an accident". very very rarely is anyone ever charge with murder or manslaughter using a car as a weapon. or even using a car to intimidate people, which you see happening every day on the roads. police put that in the to hard basket. so yes we do accept deaths by vehicles as a part of life.

but if someone sees a gun, its "its going walk on its own and kill everyone in the entire town" the complete phobia that some people have is unreal, and the police pander to that. police prosecute people in firearm cases even when there is no case. frivolous prosecution ie death by lawyer, the lawyers bill is the fine.

so huge differences between the two.

car accidents in nz is effectively a legal and ethical way to bash people and its done everyday.

tweake

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#3198016 20-Feb-2024 19:14

dimsim:

NZ has pretty rubbish drivers full stop.

We've learnt to drive on open roads with little traffic and I think due to this, most drivers think they own the bit of road they’re driving on.

I'm sure we've all experienced waiting to pull out of a driveway or service station etc on a congested road and drivers will literally speed up to not let you and then stop directly in front of you blocking your exit , while avoiding eye contact at all costs (because I was here first, you wait for me kind of attitude) Pretty much along the same lines of speeding up and not wanting people to overtake.

i would agree with that, but as a lot of the population is in cities now the "learnt with no traffic" only accounts for a small part of it. a big part of it is generations of lack of enforcement. rules that are not enforced don't exist. they get away with being bad for a very long time.

the pretending to be helpful ruse. ie flash the lights, wave, to let you in then stop in front of you so you can't. then there is the trick people into accidents, eg go right but turn left.

the lack of proper training, getting taught all the bad stuff mom and dad do, and of course allowing them sit on learner license forever.

MikeAqua

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#3198125 21-Feb-2024 08:08

Statistically speaking 50% of drivers are likely to be close to average.

Mike

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