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Goosey
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  #3201893 1-Mar-2024 09:10
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Wouldn’t have this RUC thing gone thru a select committee or committee stage at some point?

 

how come Ev owners etc didn’t lobby their MPs at the time?


 
 
 

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SaltyNZ

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  #3201894 1-Mar-2024 09:14
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Goosey:

 

Wouldn’t have this RUC thing gone thru a select committee or committee stage at some point?

 

how come Ev owners etc didn’t lobby their MPs at the time?

 

 

 

 

One, because EV owners are not actually against paying RUCs, and two, because there was a whole consultation project from NZTA in 2022, and many of us did make submissions to that. But ultimately, NZTA just chose the lazy option, 'do nothing'.





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johno1234
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  #3201898 1-Mar-2024 09:35
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Senecio:

 

Jase2985:

 

and then those that dont drive have to pay....

 

 


So…. I don’t have any kids but my taxes are used to provide education. Taxes aren’t meant to be a user pays system. 

 

 

Yep. I'm OK with any genuine "public good" being funded through taxation even if I don't directly use it. If it is a "public good" I am using it indirectly.

 

 




michaelmurfy
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  #3201905 1-Mar-2024 09:51
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Geez guys lets not make this political. There are some good points being raised here (I was also one who made a submission back in 2022) and have signed this also not that I think it is going anywhere personally but worth a shot.

 

I've removed a few off-topic posts also. Lets keep the direct attacks out of this, it is OK to disagree, it's OK to debate but lets leave it as that.





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wellygary
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  #3201906 1-Mar-2024 09:52
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Goosey:

 

Wouldn’t have this RUC thing gone thru a select committee or committee stage at some point?

 

how come Ev owners etc didn’t lobby their MPs at the time?

 

 

Not Yet, first reading in the House next week, then off to select committee quickly, ( its got to be passed by late March) 


Scott3
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  #3201916 1-Mar-2024 10:14
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mattwnz:

 

Scott3:

 

The underlying issue here is that any non plug in petrol car burning under about 9L/100km gets a better deal road tax wise, than a RUC paying vehicle (regardless if that is diesel or electric), and for smaller petrol hybrids, this difference can be dramatic.

 

In the case of diesel Utes, as the petrol versions have historically burnt more than 9L/100km, this has encouraged the purchase of diesel engine utes over petrol ones, to the point that few brands offer petrol utes in the market now. But yeah, the situation for diesels is also unfair. No real reason a Santa Fe diesel should be paying 30% odd more to use the roads than a Highlander Hybrid, just because of it's fuel.

 

In the case of small diesel car's (Swift diesel, vw polo bluemotion etc), where the petrol versions use well under 9L/100km, our RUC policy absolutely killed the market for them, to the point that they are no longer offered in NZ. (with hindsight this was very fortunate given the impacts they had on urban air quality in europe, but this was by luck, not design).

 

Cheaper EV's are basically going to get the same treatment and impact as the small diesel car's (lets face it, people are going to be cross shopping a leaf with a toyota aqua, not a mustang v8).

 

All the petition is asking for is that EV's get taxed at a similar amount to small petrol car's for the interim period until RUC's are rolled out to all vehicles. It's not fair, but will avoid an aggressive swing away from EV's to petrol hybrids, and then the reverse, when petrol hybrids get charged RUC's.

 

 

 

On petrol exercise tax not being enough, yeah, we could increase it by 2.4x to level a yaris hyrbid with an EV in terms of road tax, but this is unlikely to fly politically, as the poor family running a 15+ year old minivan at 12L/100km would get absolutely slammed.

 

 

 

Only fair way to solve this is to roll out RUC to all vehicles, until that time, we need to pick winners and losers. Picking Petrol hybrids as the winner (and by comparisons EV's to be the looser), seems questionable given our countries climate commitments. 

 

 

 

 

That is one of Nationals policies so it will be happening. The upcoming changes in short term are only for a short duration and will have winners and losers, but many taxes are not fair for all. But it is offset by the fact that up till now EV owners haven't been paying anything to use the roads. The main losers will be those who have only recently purchased an EV, or a plugin hybrid. 

 



 

It's a coalition policy yes, but without a timeline, we have no way of knowing it it is a year or a decade away. As such there is no way of knowing if this situation will be short term.

 

I don't buy the argument that it is OK to tax EV's far more than comparable hybrid vehicles because they EV's have had a good deal in the past. The whole point of the RUC EV exemption was to encourage uptake, and the existence of the exemption (up until it's expiry date at the time of purchase), was built into many buyers purchasing decisions. i.e. buyers accepted buying vehicles with higher capital cost's, in return for lower running costs (which was partially due to the RUC exemption).

 

 

 

My main concern is about how paying substantially more road tax than a Toyota hybrid will impact buyer behavior. You state that recent EV & PHEV purchaser's are the main loser's, but exactly the same applies to new purchaser's, and a fair few may now well decide a rav4 hybrid delivers better value to them than a Bz4x or Atto3.... 


Scott3
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  #3201918 1-Mar-2024 10:24
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SaltyNZ:

 

One, because EV owners are not actually against paying RUCs, and two, because there was a whole consultation project from NZTA in 2022, and many of us did make submissions to that. But ultimately, NZTA just chose the lazy option, 'do nothing'.

 

 

Should note this is not the "do nothing" option.

 

The do nothing option would have been just simply let the current exemption legislation expire:

 

https://legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2012/0140/latest/whole.html#DLM4503606

 

 

 

The new legislation will add the 2 month grace /amnesty period, and will add the special PHEV RUC rate, and remove the ability for PHEV's to claim back petrol tax. (current legislation allows any vehicle that pays RUC to claim back petrol tax, typically these are large USA sourced RV's (motorhomes), but also included petrol utes that are over the 3500kg threshold like the RAM TRX).




SATTV
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  #3201921 1-Mar-2024 10:27
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Remember labour were going to impliment RUC on electric vehicles back in 2021 I think and it was postponed due to covid.

 

The ones I feel sorry for are the PHEV but full electic vehicles are very fair IMHO.

 

John





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empacher48
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  #3201922 1-Mar-2024 10:28
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Nope, I won’t be signing it and I own an EV. I came from a light diesel and have been paying RUC for years.

 

RUC should be kept as far away from any sort of emissions charging or discounting regarding the “environmentally friendly nature of the vehicle.”

 

RUC is for the maintenance of the roads, if you want to charge vehicles for their environmental damage, then carbon levies on the fuel they use should be the way to do it.


SaltyNZ

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  #3201924 1-Mar-2024 10:29
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Scott3:

 

The new legislation will add the 2 month grace /amnesty period, and will add the special PHEV RUC rate, and remove the ability for PHEV's to claim back petrol tax. (current legislation allows any vehicle that pays RUC to claim back petrol tax, typically these are large USA sourced RV's (motorhomes), but also included petrol utes that are over the 3500kg threshold like the RAM TRX).

 

 

 

 

Yes, fair point - I forgot those couple of tweaks.





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networkn
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  #3201929 1-Mar-2024 10:41
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Scott3:

 

I don't buy the argument that it is OK to tax EV's far more than comparable hybrid vehicles because they EV's have had a good deal in the past. The whole point of the RUC EV exemption was to encourage uptake, and the existence of the exemption (up until it's expiry date at the time of purchase), was built into many buyers purchasing decisions. i.e. buyers accepted buying vehicles with higher capital cost's, in return for lower running costs (which was partially due to the RUC exemption).

 

 

 

My main concern is about how paying substantially more road tax than a Toyota hybrid will impact buyer behavior. You state that recent EV & PHEV purchaser's are the main loser's, but exactly the same applies to new purchaser's, and a fair few may now well decide a rav4 hybrid delivers better value to them than a Bz4x or Atto3.... 

 

 

Given the expense of a pure EV, RUC won't have been a significant incentive or lack of. Suggesting it's been a significant factor in EV uptake says more about the owners wanting a free ride, than it does about a delibertate attempt to drive EV uptake. If you can afford an EV, you can afford to pay your fair share, esp since, largely EV's are heavier, and put more pressure on the roads. 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Scott3
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  #3201932 1-Mar-2024 10:51
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SATTV:

 

Remember labour were going to impliment RUC on electric vehicles back in 2021 I think and it was postponed due to covid.

 

The ones I feel sorry for are the PHEV but full electic vehicles are very fair IMHO.

 

John

 

 

It was extended to encourage the continued uptake of EV's, and because the 2016 target set of having 2% of the fleet plug in had not been met.

 

 

https://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/2021-07-05-EV-RUC-Exemption-for-website-QAs-1.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

As an EV owner, I am fine with paying road tax, just think that paying ~2.4x the road tax of a Yaris hybrid is a bit inequitable.


SaltyNZ

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  #3201933 1-Mar-2024 10:58
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Scott3:

 

As an EV owner, I am fine with paying road tax, just think that paying ~2.4x the road tax of a Yaris hybrid is a bit inequitable.

 

 

 

 

For me, it's even less about it being inequitable - because it's always going to be inequitable in some way - but more about it being inequitable in a way that opposes what we should be trying to achieve. The real answer is all vehicles pay RUCs.





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Scott3
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  #3201935 1-Mar-2024 11:04
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networkn:

 

Given the expense of a pure EV, RUC won't have been a significant incentive or lack of. Suggesting it's been a significant factor in EV uptake says more about the owners wanting a free ride, than it does about a delibertate attempt to drive EV uptake. If you can afford an EV, you can afford to pay your fair share, esp since, largely EV's are heavier, and put more pressure on the roads. 

 

 

Can't speak for others, but I paid around $12k for my EV. The RUC exemption was a material factor in my running costs model.

 

I don't have an issue paying my fair share. But I feel paying the same road tax as an aqua or fielder hybrid would be fair. As the proposal stands I will be paying more than double. The difference is so dramatic, it means a small toyota hybrid will replace the leaf as most economical option for commuters etc.

 

On weight, the damage done by all light vehicles to the roads is negligible, so it is not a relevant factor

 

 

 

 

 

 


reven
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  #3201947 1-Mar-2024 11:25
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I think its cray the RUC for my ev are the same as my preivous diesel ute.   

 

 

 

Fine with RUC, but the pricing is crazy.


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