Towing 3500kg caravan

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16912 posts

Uber Geek

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#3271976 15-Aug-2024 12:54

In terms of capital cost, assuming you only need to seat two in the truck, its a fairly cheap option. Below truck is a 2013 truck with 781,336km asking $21k.

If you really desperately wanted an older Hyundai with that many kms or a bit less you'll find them around for less than $5k. I would not recommend those for non-commercial users. You will find Hyundai and other trucks with far lower kms for a similar price if that's the bracket.

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gzt

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#3271977 15-Aug-2024 12:57

That doesn't look healthy..

MartinGZ

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#3272101 15-Aug-2024 16:00

Scott3:

On driver licensing, (Not legal advise), but my reading of the wording, makes it sound like you need to add the GVM of the tow vehicle and the trailer together to find the GCM for licensing purposes.

This is correct, but please note it is the Max value as defined by the manufacturer, or when measured on the road, whichever is the greatest. NZTA complicate things by using different terms for the same thing e.g. mass and weight. And the terms are different to those used in Oz. Manufacturers may use yet a different term. But basically:

GCW = GVW + ATW

where

GVW = Gross vehicle weight/mass of the vehicle as stated by the manufacturer. This includes the max load the manufacture will allow. The number is not negotiable.

ATW = Aggregate trailer weight/mass. This includes the allowable load and is normally stated by the manufacturer or will be plated on the caravan.

The law and regs around this are a pigs ear and should be sorted out. Can't see it happening.

5th Wheelers

Agreed that small one seems fine, but mostly they are bigger than that. People buy them because that are big.

Scott3:

Even for the 3,450 kg loaded 5th wheel like the below, a Thai built ute is going to have a much easier time, and be much more dynamically stable than a comparable weight regular caravan. Payload for the ute will be reduced to ~250kg, but given the tray is essentially unavailable for loading, and on the assumption there are two or less people in the ute, this should be possible to stay under the utes 6000kg GCM.

You may want to edit that bit for as you correctly stated earlier in that particular post the GCM of the BT50 combination is 6650 kg, way above what Mazda and the law (for Class 1) allow. That combination is very similar to the one where they changed to a Ram and Class 2 licence.

MartinGZ

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#3272161 15-Aug-2024 16:21

Wheelbarrow01:

The people who write off the Touareg have generally never driven or lived with one. My 4.2 V8 Touareg has even more power/torque than the preceding 5 litre V10 that successfully towed a 747 on Top Gear.

I said no to the Tourareg as the OP was talking about a 3.5 tonne caravan. I still say no to that one and I'm glad you agree. Your uses are fine.

About a year ago I saw a Touareg, probably Q7, pulling a Rockwood caravan that has an unladen weight of 3210 kg, towball weight of 419 kg. One of these. For that, I think you would agree it is just NO. Even for a Ranger.

BTW, I've also had 3 Rangers and only paid for normal servicing.

As for John Cadogan, he used to be good, but he's lost the plot. But let's not sidetrack the thread on that one. 😀

tweake

2296 posts

Uber Geek

#3272162 15-Aug-2024 16:24

Scott3:

On driver licensing, (Not legal advise), but my reading of the wording, makes it sound like you need to add the GVM of the tow vehicle and the trailer together to find the GCM for licensing purposes.

So if we take the rig with the Mazda at the bottom of this post, the Utes GVM is ~ 3200kg, and the 5th wheel is ~3450, giving a sum of 6650kg, which is well above the class 2 limit.

Of course the GCM of the ute is just 6000kg, meaning it is not possible to carry the full payload of the ute (actually it needs to be close to empty), concurrent with such a heavy trailer, without the combination exceeding the tow vehicles GCM rating.

If I am correct in the above, it means it is relatively easy to cross the class 1 license limit with 3T + trailers, even if the actual on road weight is under 6000kg.

correct.

also apologizes, i got GVM and GCM mixed up in my posts above.

its utes GVM + trailer =GCM, which on most utes is 6000kg. with 3500kg trailer, your ute can only be 2500kg gross. as most utes are around 2000kg that leaves you with a measly 500kg ute load, most of which will be taken up by the hitch and people. realistically utes are only good for 3000kg trailers max.

the 5th wheel pics, i don't recommend dual cab utes for that. single or king can is better. the bottom mazda pic shows one badly done setup with heights and weight mismatched.

Scott3

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#3272175 15-Aug-2024 16:58

MartinGZ:

Scott3:

Even for the 3,450 kg loaded 5th wheel like the below, a Thai built ute is going to have a much easier time, and be much more dynamically stable than a comparable weight regular caravan. Payload for the ute will be reduced to ~250kg, but given the tray is essentially unavailable for loading, and on the assumption there are two or less people in the ute, this should be possible to stay under the utes 6000kg GCM.

You may want to edit that bit for as you correctly stated earlier in that particular post the GCM of the BT50 combination is 6650 kg, way above what Mazda and the law (for Class 1) allow. That combination is very similar to the one where they changed to a Ram and Class 2 licence.

Edit window has long closed.

Anyway I am not sure that I am wrong.

For the purpose of driver's licensing, the legislation seems clear, you need to count the payload of both the Ute and the trailer even if they are not utilized.

But for the purpose of not exceeding a Utes GCM, the above would make ute where the GCM is less than the GVM + tow rating nonsensical. The only way for it to make sense is to consider the GCM or max train weight as the actual weight on the road, meaning you can can max out the tow rating by lightly loading the Ute.

So I think a 3000kg GVM ute (with 6000kg GCM), loaded to only 2450kg, towing a 3,500kg would not be considered overloaded, but would trigger the need for a class 2 license.

I could be wrong with the above. If I as an engineer are unsure of this kind of stuff, it doesn't speak well to how easy it would be for the general public to navigate.

Wheelbarrow01

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#3272183 15-Aug-2024 17:26

MartinGZ:

Wheelbarrow01:

The people who write off the Touareg have generally never driven or lived with one. My 4.2 V8 Touareg has even more power/torque than the preceding 5 litre V10 that successfully towed a 747 on Top Gear.

I said no to the Tourareg as the OP was talking about a 3.5 tonne caravan. I still say no to that one and I'm glad you agree. Your uses are fine.

About a year ago I saw a Touareg, probably Q7, pulling a Rockwood caravan that has an unladen weight of 3210 kg, towball weight of 419 kg. One of these. For that, I think you would agree it is just NO. Even for a Ranger.

BTW, I've also had 3 Rangers and only paid for normal servicing.

As for John Cadogan, he used to be good, but he's lost the plot. But let's not sidetrack the thread on that one. 😀

Yea I'd happily hitch a 3.5 tonne digger/trailer combination to my Touareg and tow it from the hire place 5 mins up the road to my house, but I wouldn't be considering any long distance or highway driving with such a weight behind me - ever!

MartinGZ

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#3272232 15-Aug-2024 20:08

Scott3:

...

For the purpose of driver's licensing, the legislation seems clear, you need to count the payload of both the Ute and the trailer even if they are not utilized.

....

But for the purpose of not exceeding a Utes GCM, the above would make ute where the GCM is less than the GVM + tow rating nonsensical. The only way for it to make sense is to consider the GCM or max train weight as the actual weight on the road, meaning you can can max out the tow rating by lightly loading the Ute.

So I think a 3000kg GVM ute (with 6000kg GCM), loaded to only 2450kg, towing a 3,500kg would not be considered overloaded, but would trigger the need for a class 2 license.

As a fellow (ex) engineer, I couldn't agree more that the whole thing is confusing as there is way too much info to read through.

Your first point. Absolutely, Class 2 licence needed.

Your second point. It is overloaded. What you say makes absolute sense, but it is not what the law states. GVM and GCM are defined in law as per my previous post.

The following from NZTA, don't ask me the law/regulations that this is based on, but if someone can find it I would be interested. My bold in the text.

What are the general mass (weight) limits on New Zealand roads?

The words ‘mass’ and ‘weight’ are sometimes used interchangeably though they mean the same thing. For example a vehicle’s tare (in kilograms) is its unladen mass, but you would measure it by using a weighbridge.

There are two different types of mass limit that apply to your vehicle and its load.

First, there is the limitation imposed by the vehicle’s design and construction. You must not exceed the vehicle ratings specified by the vehicle manufacturer for the chassis, axles, tyres and other components of the vehicle. For example, you are not allowed to load your vehicle above the specified maximum gross vehicle mass (GVM), gross combination mass (GCM), brake code mass ;(BCM) or tow a load greater than the drawbar is rated for.

Vehicle dimensions and mass | NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (nzta.govt.nz)

That seems pretty unambiguous and you would have to be a legal beagle to find a way around it.

Fortunately I tow below the limits and have a Class 2 licence anyway.

I quote from the forum I linked to earlier, this referring to the Class 2 licence:

"I spent many years weighing trucks for a living. I rarely issued infringement notices for driving with the wrong class of licence in these situations, but I always pointed out the effect of their vehicle insurance policies. The only time I ever issued a ticket was when someone argued with me. I would then say I was doing it so they could take it to court and watch the Judge put me right!. I never had a defended hearing so I assume they eventually just paid the fine.

I often supplied reports to insurance companies after accidents and Insurance investigators were always delighted when the saw the GWLs of the combination was over 6000kg and the driver only had a class 1 licence. Saving their clients from paying out was good for their business apparently?"

(2) Class 2 licence needed when towing caravan - Page 3 - nzmotorhome.co.nz

SomeoneSomewhere

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#3272251 15-Aug-2024 20:44

My understanding (that seems to be being missed in this thread) is:

'Gross' means maximum weight. Driver licensing doesn't care how heavily or lightly the vehicle is loaded. See the law on the previous page.

its utes GVM + trailer =GCM, which on most utes is 6000kg. with 3500kg trailer, your ute can only be 2500kg gross. as most utes are around 2000kg that leaves you with a measly 500kg ute load, most of which will be taken up by the hitch and people. realistically utes are only good for 3000kg trailers max.

It doesn't matter how much load is on the ute. If the sticker says it can be loaded to 3500kg, it's assumed that it is loaded to 3500kg. Same for the trailer: if it says 3000kg, then it is 3000kg, even if it's a flatbed that's 500kg empty.

You can be driving an empty ute that weighs 2000kg and towing an empty flatbed that weighs 500kg, but because the sum of their maximum weights (GLWs) is 6500kg, you are outside of the licensing rules even though your weight on a weighbridge is only 2500kg.

pdh

295 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3272254 15-Aug-2024 20:49

anyone who tows a trailer that weighs more than the towing vehicle is asking for trouble.

With respect, this is silly.
Most trailed vehicles do not follow this 'rule of thumb' - ie: every laden semi out there.

Wombat1

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#3272255 15-Aug-2024 20:52

90's 6 cylinder Diesel Turbo 4.2L Toyota Landcruiser. I had one for a few years, its more than capable for the job.

And make sure the caravan has brakes that operate on all wheels and has a braking system that can be operated from the towing vehicle. This is law here in QLD for that sort of weight, not sure if it is in NZ but I would not be chancing it with a 3500kg of load behind me down some of NZ's steep gradients.

Handle9

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#3272256 15-Aug-2024 20:56

pdh:

anyone who tows a trailer that weighs more than the towing vehicle is asking for trouble.

With respect, this is silly.
Most trailed vehicles do not follow this 'rule of thumb' - ie: every laden semi out there.

You're talking apples and oranges comparing towing a semi trailer to towing a caravan. It's a very different proposition.

Wombat1

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#3272258 15-Aug-2024 21:01

Wheelbarrow01:

But I do want to make it clear - anyone who tows a trailer that weighs more than the towing vehicle is asking for trouble. It's fine so long as the vehicle is travelling in the direction you want it to, but when things go pear shaped, they go real pear shaped real quick. It's just basic physics....

This is nonsense, I would agree if the trailer was not breaked.

Handle9

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#3272259 15-Aug-2024 21:03

Wombat1:

Wheelbarrow01:

But I do want to make it clear - anyone who tows a trailer that weighs more than the towing vehicle is asking for trouble. It's fine so long as the vehicle is travelling in the direction you want it to, but when things go pear shaped, they go real pear shaped real quick. It's just basic physics....

This is nonsense, I would agree if the trailer was not breaked.

It you break your trailer you're doing it wrong....

MartinGZ

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#3272263 15-Aug-2024 21:24

SomeoneSomewhere:

My understanding (that seems to be being missed in this thread) is:

Well yes, but it is entirely understandable that people misunderstand. Official written advice is not clear on this, it's only once you start digging around that it becomes clear.

Any caravan dealer will tell you that 3.5 tonne is perfectly acceptable for that ute. As a buyer why would you disbelieve someone who deals with this all the time. (I know, I know!)

A couple more things from the link (2) Class 2 licence needed when towing caravan - Page 11 - nzmotorhome.co.nz

The NZ Motor Caravan Association has it's head in the sand (The NZMCA has absolutely no connection to the linked NZ Motorhome Forum):

I wrote to the NZMCA webmaster asking them to provide more clarity but they were not about to change the website. I have posted clear explanations of the need to have class 2 licences on the NZMCA facebook page .. It was instantly taken down and I am on "moderation".

Incorrect government advice:

Drive.govt.nz is a government site designed to test your knowledge of the driving rules when preparing to obtain your driver's licence. It is the go-to site for young people getting their licence for the first time and it provides the misinformation about the 6000kg GCM that has become so widespread. It is really no wonder that everyone misunderstands the rule when this sort of information is being given to new drivers?

https://drive.govt.nz/learner-licence/i ... -can-i-tow

It clearly states that the class 1 limit of 6000kg is the weight of the car, trailer and its load.

Just to be clear, in that last sentence shalodge is saying the Drive link is wrong, as it talks about weight, not GVM or GCM.

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