Towing 3500kg caravan

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Towing 3500kg caravan

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9

331 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3272265 15-Aug-2024 21:26

We're not keeping the distinction between Driver Licence requirements and legal, mechanical safety on the road.

For driver licence - all the gross (max allowed) weights add up - to determine your required licence.
So empty or full doesn't matter.
This is silly if you're towing an empty flat-bed - but hey.

For on-the-road limits, load does matter.
You need to select vehicles - and then load them - to respect your trailer limit, each trailer axle limit, each trailer tyre limit, your hitch limit, your tow vehicle limit, your tow vehicle's axle limits and your tow vehicle's tyre limits.
Many, many recreational users get some part of this wrong - and unlike North America, cops are unlikely to carry road scales in their vehicles to assess your compliance - so it'll only be a crash that reveals your error.

For my adventures in Canada/US, I was going to buy a RAM 1500 - but I couldn't make the truck loading (and rear axle loading) work. The trailer just put too much weight (1T) on the back of the truck - via the tow hitch. So I went with the much more robust RAM 2500 - and even then used a weight distribution hitch, to transfer 350 Kg of tongue weight to the truck's front axle. Either truck was well within spec for simple tow capability (5 & 7.8 T), but I needed the 2500 for the axle loading and for the all-up weight of what my truck would carry over & above the trailer.

Weight distribution hitches (ie: Reece) are cool engineering - but (as far as I have seen) almost unheard of in NZ.

Scott3

3946 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3272266 15-Aug-2024 21:34

The whole situation is frustrating. Fortunately I haven't towed anything over 2T, so I other than a passing interest it doesn't really impact me.

Would make it easier if every car included key technical specs (GVM, Max tow, Max tow ball down force, GCM) etched into a name plate, so it was available for reference. As is, one needs to to rely on a combination of tools like Carjam gvm, stickers on the towbar for tow specs (in an area prone to damage, and often on the removable bit), and old spec's sheets on the internet for GCM...

MartinGZ:

Your second point. It is overloaded. What you say makes absolute sense, but it is not what the law states. GVM and GCM are defined in law as per my previous post.

The following from NZTA, don't ask me the law/regulations that this is based on, but if someone can find it I would be interested. My bold in the text.

What are the general mass (weight) limits on New Zealand roads?

The words ‘mass’ and ‘weight’ are sometimes used interchangeably though they mean the same thing. For example a vehicle’s tare (in kilograms) is its unladen mass, but you would measure it by using a weighbridge.

There are two different types of mass limit that apply to your vehicle and its load.

First, there is the limitation imposed by the vehicle’s design and construction. You must not exceed the vehicle ratings specified by the vehicle manufacturer for the chassis, axles, tyres and other components of the vehicle. For example, you are not allowed to load your vehicle above the specified maximum gross vehicle mass (GVM), gross combination mass (GCM), brake code mass ;(BCM) or tow a load greater than the drawbar is rated for.

Vehicle dimensions and mass | NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (nzta.govt.nz)

That seems pretty unambiguous and you would have to be a legal beagle to find a way around it.

Fortunately I tow below the limits and have a Class 2 licence anyway.

I agree with most of what you have said, but not this bit.

The question is, is a Ute empty 2200kg ute (with 3000 kg GVM & 6000 kg GCM, 3500kg tow rating) towing a 3500kg trailer exceeding the manufactured rating

My take is no. 2200kg + 3500kg = 5700kg, which is less than the GCM published by the vehicle.

It is clear that the ute manufacture intended that the Ute be rated to tow 3500kg when lightly loaded, otherwise a GCM of any value other than the sum of the GVM and the tow rating is nonsensical.

Using the licensing definition seems inappropriate. Firstly it is nothing to do with loading, secondly the term's used are different (Gross combined mass vs Gross combined weight).

The website you link to doesn't have any means to calculated GCM (and uses a different again description: gross combination mass) think is a poor summary, as it omits to mention those rules are for heavy vehicles only.

On the vehicle dimension and mass document, the relevant section (4.2), it refers to heavy motor vehicles only.

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/rules/docs/vehicle-dimensions-and-mass-2016-as-at-1-may-2021.pdf

Should note that the laws in NZ requiring manufacturers ratings be followed only apply to heavy vehicles.

https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1998/0110/latest/whole.html#DLM434532

Of course the general catch all's do apply, but as long as the loading doesn't cross the threshold of being "unsafe" or "dangerous", my understanding is that you are all good.

That said, good luck proving your choice to operate a combination was "not unsafe", and "not dangerous" if it ends up jack-knifed and inverted on the motorway... So if you are buying a vehicle for towing (especially for something visually large), it is a great idea to ensure it is appropriately rated.

Frankly it is great that we are not obligated to follow manufacture ratings on light vehicles. Means it is legal in NZ to use a Nissan leaf to tow a 400kg garden trailer to the dump, something which would be illegal in many other countries as Nissan never got around to rating the leaf for towing...

MartinGZ

359 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#3272267 15-Aug-2024 21:34

Wombat1:

90's 6 cylinder Diesel Turbo 4.2L Toyota Landcruiser. I had one for a few years, its more than capable for the job.

It may quite possibly do the job, but you would be breaking the law. This is what I'm trying to get across. Please read the above posts.

You would also find the GCM and Towing capacity down on todays vehicles:

Gross Vehicle Weight 2960 kg

Braked Towing Capacity 2500 kg

1992 Toyota Landcruiser Gxl (4X4) 4.2L Diesel 4D Wagon Pricing and Specifications. (whichcar.com.au)

Handle9

11272 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3272269 15-Aug-2024 21:43

Scott3:

It is clear that the ute manufacture intended that the Ute be rated to tow 3500kg when lightly loaded, otherwise a GCM of any value other than the sum of the GVM and the tow rating is nonsensical.

While you are technically correct (the best kind of correct) I think in reality, if everyone was telling the truth, they would concede 3500kg is a bullshit tow rating that only exists for marketing purposes.

Scott3

3946 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3272270 15-Aug-2024 21:49

MartinGZ:

Wombat1:

90's 6 cylinder Diesel Turbo 4.2L Toyota Landcruiser. I had one for a few years, its more than capable for the job.

It may quite possibly do the job, but you would be breaking the law. This is what I'm trying to get across. Please read the above posts.

You would also find the GCM and Towing capacity down on todays vehicles:

Gross Vehicle Weight 2960 kg

Braked Towing Capacity 2500 kg

1992 Toyota Landcruiser Gxl (4X4) 4.2L Diesel 4D Wagon Pricing and Specifications. (whichcar.com.au)

You will need to cite the law if you are going to accuse people of breaking it...

Also the landcruiser in question could well be a something like a 70 series which has a 3500kg tow rating & a fairly high GCM vs the Thai built Utes.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/specs/1999-toyota-landcruiser-4x4-11-seat-hzj78r-diesel-troopcarrier-m2zRcYxKyG

PolicyGuy

1716 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Lifetime subscriber

#3272272 15-Aug-2024 22:09

Wheelbarrow01:

But I do want to make it clear - anyone who tows a trailer that weighs more than the towing vehicle is asking for trouble.

I'm sure that when I was a lad (admittedly half a century ago!) and lived in Sydney, that was actually the law, at least as far as it applied to light vehicles such as cars, station wagons, utes & vans:

The gross laden weight of the trailer must not exceed the tare weight of the towing vehicle.

IIRC any trailer with gross laden weight over 500kg had to have brakes, any with gross laden weight over 1 tonne had to have electrically signaled hydraulic brakes. That was in the 1970s

Ge0rge

2039 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3272281 15-Aug-2024 22:45

TrailerSauce has a really good run down on the braking requirements for light trailers both here and in Aus.

Tradepub

Free professional, reference and technical white papers (affiliate link).

MartinGZ

359 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#3272285 15-Aug-2024 22:59

OK my last word on this, as thing are getting a bit warm for GZ.

Scott3:

You will need to cite the law if you are going to accuse people of breaking it...

That wasn't a personal dig at you, it was "you" as people in general. Apologies if offence was taken, absolutely none was intended.

Most of my resources for this come from shalodge in the Motor Home forum. As he issued tickets I assume he is ex-police, but don't know that for certain.

Weight/mass. I sort of agree as this does my head in. Technically they are different things, but common acceptance for the common man is that they both mean kg as measured. The NZTA states they are used interchangeably as I quote in my one of my posts above. [The mass of an object never changes, but it's weight will change depending of gravity. So a vehicle will weigh less at Arthurs Pass than it does in Christchurch, but we are talking about a tiny percentage, probably less than a Kg. I worked it out once, but hey.]

GCW

"Should note that the laws in NZ requiring manufacturers ratings be followed only apply to heavy vehicles."

In that set of regs I sort of agree, as it 95% applies to heavy vehicles.

Please refer to this as well in licencing, my understanding is that it applies to all vehicles, yes it is to do with licensing, but I'll leave that one for the lawyers to argue about. Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Rule 1999 (SR 1999/100) (as at 02 December 2023) – New Zealand Legislation

That's it, over and out on this one.

Bung

6399 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#3272289 15-Aug-2024 23:43

MartinGZ:

OK my last word on this, as thing are getting a bit warm for GZ.

Most of my resources for this come from shalodge in the Motor Home forum. As he issued tickets I assume he is ex-police, but don't know that for certain.

I would bet that shalodge is probably an ex commercial vehicle investigation unit staff member. Not all were Police, some were qualified mechanics with authorised officer status. Known as the God Squad they manned the weighbridges.

The following is from the NZTA guide to safe towing for light vehicles with added bolding.

"Most vehicles have tow ratings given to them by the manufacturer specifying the gross trailer weight braked, unbraked, or both, that the vehicle can safely tow. Although the law does not require these tow ratings to be followed, the NZ Transport Agency recommends that they be taken into account.

In addition to the requirements above, the law requires that every light vehicle and trailer combination must be capable of stopping within a distance of seven metres from a speed of 30km/h. In effect, this means that the maximum allowable weight of an unbraked trailer is limited by the weight and braking ability of the vehicle being used to tow it."

tweake

2349 posts

Uber Geek

#3272601 16-Aug-2024 15:59

Bung:

The following is from the NZTA guide to safe towing for light vehicles with added bolding.

"Most vehicles have tow ratings given to them by the manufacturer specifying the gross trailer weight braked, unbraked, or both, that the vehicle can safely tow. Although the law does not require these tow ratings to be followed, the NZ Transport Agency recommends that they be taken into account.

In addition to the requirements above, the law requires that every light vehicle and trailer combination must be capable of stopping within a distance of seven metres from a speed of 30km/h. In effect, this means that the maximum allowable weight of an unbraked trailer is limited by the weight and braking ability of the vehicle being used to tow it."

correct.

when was the last time you heard of anyone actually being checked? this is why unbraked 2 ton (or less) trailers are fairly common. i was told a botting mag did some testing and none of the boat trailers tested passed. people skimp on the braking to cut costs. common thing to see with hire trailers, the braking actuators detuned so the brakes don't work as much. i even had a customer come in the other day with a 2.5 ton trailer that had 1.5 ton brakes fitted to it.

its a loop hole in the law thats over due to be closed.

johno1234

2736 posts

Uber Geek

#3272605 16-Aug-2024 16:04

tweake:

Bung:

The following is from the NZTA guide to safe towing for light vehicles with added bolding.

"Most vehicles have tow ratings given to them by the manufacturer specifying the gross trailer weight braked, unbraked, or both, that the vehicle can safely tow. Although the law does not require these tow ratings to be followed, the NZ Transport Agency recommends that they be taken into account.

In addition to the requirements above, the law requires that every light vehicle and trailer combination must be capable of stopping within a distance of seven metres from a speed of 30km/h. In effect, this means that the maximum allowable weight of an unbraked trailer is limited by the weight and braking ability of the vehicle being used to tow it."

correct.

when was the last time you heard of anyone actually being checked? this is why unbraked 2 ton (or less) trailers are fairly common. i was told a botting mag did some testing and none of the boat trailers tested passed. people skimp on the braking to cut costs. common thing to see with hire trailers, the braking actuators detuned so the brakes don't work as much. i even had a customer come in the other day with a 2.5 ton trailer that had 1.5 ton brakes fitted to it.

its a loop hole in the law thats over due to be closed.

I bet it has been looked at and is sitting in the too-hard basket

tweake

2349 posts

Uber Geek

#3272616 16-Aug-2024 16:41

johno1234:

I bet it has been looked at and is sitting in the too-hard basket

probably ignored because boat sellers want people to spend on their money on boats not trailers and trailer builder make money selling cheap trailers that people overload.

Bung

6399 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#3272617 16-Aug-2024 16:42

According to figures on NZTA site trailer accidents result in 2 fatalities and 5 serious injuries per year. If fixing that upset the fishing and caravan vote I don't think the Government would do much.

Handle9

11272 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3272619 16-Aug-2024 16:52

johno1234:

I bet it has been looked at and is sitting in the too-hard basket

It's impractical to test and therefore almost unenforceable. It smells of one of those laws that sound good on paper but aren't practical to implement.

If it was a massive problem it'd likely get some attention.

tweake

2349 posts

Uber Geek

#3272625 16-Aug-2024 17:05

Handle9:

It's impractical to test and therefore almost unenforceable. It smells of one of those laws that sound good on paper but aren't practical to implement.

If it was a massive problem it'd likely get some attention.

not hard to change or enforce.

change it so you have to obey the car manufactures limits and have the correct tow bar for those limits. for enforcement, simply weigh the trailer. thats far easier to do than the "stopping within a distance of seven metres from a speed of 30km/h.". as almost no car/ute has above 700kg unbraked tow limits, and a double axle trailer is ~500kg unloaded, pretty much every trailer bar tiny trailers would require brakes. that makes visual inspection really simple.

it also makes for easy to comply as everyone can look up whats required.

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9