Auckland's new HOP bus card and Snapper: What's the difference?

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lyonrouge

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#466825 8-May-2011 17:41

I can advise that registration on myhop creates an account on snapper. Online topup appears to be unavailable, and whan available it appears you have to install some gastly thick client (really, WTH, is this the best they could do, ** rant ** / ** rave **).

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aw

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#467729 10-May-2011 20:13

Snapper is only the backend for Phase 1 of the HOP rollout and the feeder device will only work during this time - so probably not worth buying one.

As I understand it, online topups will start to work during Phase 2 when Thales take over the backend.

sbiddle

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#467732 10-May-2011 20:28

Anybody know what HOP's plans are for online topups? It's something very few places around the world offer, in part because you can only do it when you've got terminals with backhaul.

With Oyster for example your balance can only be updates at tube station barriers and some bus stops. You can't easily have a topup done when tagging on to a bus in Wellington for example, since any updates could only be loaded onto the bus at night when it goes back to the depot the the data is synced.

graemeh

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#467796 11-May-2011 08:33

sbiddle: You can't easily have a topup done when tagging on to a bus in Wellington for example, since any updates could only be loaded onto the bus at night when it goes back to the depot the the data is synced.

I don't see any technical reason why not. The balance is held on the card and you could just update the card. The bus reader already updates the available balance each time you get on and off.

I doubt you'd want to do it though, one of the big advantages of the slapper card is it is fast. Doing topups on the bus would cause delays.

sxz

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#467903 11-May-2011 12:44

I have my HOP card but am now waiting for it to roll out on my bus.

I understand from a collegue that the card needs to be removed from your wallet, and the sensor is not particularly powerful (i.e. you cant just waive your walllet infront of the sensor)?

Is this true? Can this be fixed?

Surely the whole point of the system is speed and ease, like the oyster card.

Also, it sounds like you are all saying a snapper card can work interchangable with a hop card now, but it wont be the case in a few months time (when phase 2 rolls out). Will this mean in phase 2 a hop card can be used to buy a can of coke but snapper wont buy a bus trip?

Cheers,

*confused*

lchiu7

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#467911 11-May-2011 13:04

sbiddle: Anybody know what HOP's plans are for online topups? It's something very few places around the world offer, in part because you can only do it when you've got terminals with backhaul.

With Oyster for example your balance can only be updates at tube station barriers and some bus stops. You can't easily have a topup done when tagging on to a bus in Wellington for example, since any updates could only be loaded onto the bus at night when it goes back to the depot the the data is synced.

Same applies for the HK Octopus card. But of course with a great deal of transportation being done on the underground, it's pretty easy to place kiosks in places where folks can top them up.

The online Snapper topup is a bit klunky with your having to purchase a USB reader and use their software but if you're managing a bunch of cards (like for kids), it's convenient since you don't need to take their cards away during the daytime to top them up.

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jonb

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#467913 11-May-2011 13:08

sxz: I have my HOP card but am now waiting for it to roll out on my bus.

I understand from a colleague that the card needs to be removed from your wallet, and the sensor is not particularly powerful (i.e. you cant just wave your wallet in front of the sensor)?

Is this true? Can this be fixed?

I had no problem leaving it in my wallet, maybe it depends whereabouts it's placed in your wallet though - in the middle of a bunch of other cards might block the sensor.

Interestingly, when I had both my Ritchies card and hop card in my wallet, it threw an exception 'two cards detected, please try again'

scooby101

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#467999 11-May-2011 17:25

sxz: I have my HOP card but am now waiting for it to roll out on my bus.

I understand from a collegue that the card needs to be removed from your wallet, and the sensor is not particularly powerful (i.e. you cant just waive your walllet infront of the sensor)?

Is this true? Can this be fixed?

Nope. I travel to Wellington a lot to visit family and I've never once had to remove my Snapper card from my wallet - and I have a very fat wallet (sadly not from fat wads of cash!).

sbiddle

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#468026 11-May-2011 19:11

graemeh:
sbiddle: You can't easily have a topup done when tagging on to a bus in Wellington for example, since any updates could only be loaded onto the bus at night when it goes back to the depot the the data is synced.

I don't see any technical reason why not. The balance is held on the card and you could just update the card. The bus reader already updates the available balance each time you get on and off.

I doubt you'd want to do it though, one of the big advantages of the slapper card is it is fast. Doing topups on the bus would cause delays.

I'm not sure you grasp the problem. If you update a card online this topup info needs to be applied to the card, therein lies the issue. You couldn't go and add an online topup and then hop on a bus because there is no way for that topup information to be sent to the bus.

Because buses don't have high bandwidth realtime connectivity this can't easily be done - data with Snapper is updated each time the bus enters a depot. With Oyster or Octopus for example the prime use is trains where entry/exit barriers have realtime connectivity and can apply online updates to the card virtually instantly.

There is also the issue of minimising the transaction process and keeping this below ~500ms, if lots is going on such as balance updates this can be a challenge.

sbiddle

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#468027 11-May-2011 19:12

sxz: I have my HOP card but am now waiting for it to roll out on my bus.

I understand from a collegue that the card needs to be removed from your wallet, and the sensor is not particularly powerful (i.e. you cant just waive your walllet infront of the sensor)?

Is this true? Can this be fixed?

Surely the whole point of the system is speed and ease, like the oyster card.

Also, it sounds like you are all saying a snapper card can work interchangable with a hop card now, but it wont be the case in a few months time (when phase 2 rolls out). Will this mean in phase 2 a hop card can be used to buy a can of coke but snapper wont buy a bus trip?

Cheers,

*confused*

I've never removed my card from my wallet. There can be issues with multiple RFID cards however.

lchiu7

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#468342 12-May-2011 15:14

sbiddle:

Because buses don't have high bandwidth realtime connectivity this can't easily be done - data with Snapper is updated each time the bus enters a depot. With Oyster or Octopus for example the prime use is trains where entry/exit barriers have realtime connectivity and can apply online updates to the card virtually instantly.

There is also the issue of minimising the transaction process and keeping this below ~500ms, if lots is going on such as balance updates this can be a challenge.

I think the data on the buses is retrieved from the bus when it's in the depot so they can update the card balances in the back end. This isn't so much so that they know you have enough money to use the card next time (because the buses don't do realtime validation) but to know enough to send emails to those who have registered warning them of low balances. Also the transaction information is used to update the data warehouse.

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sbiddle

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#468419 12-May-2011 18:33

lchiu7:
sbiddle:

Because buses don't have high bandwidth realtime connectivity this can't easily be done - data with Snapper is updated each time the bus enters a depot. With Oyster or Octopus for example the prime use is trains where entry/exit barriers have realtime connectivity and can apply online updates to the card virtually instantly.

There is also the issue of minimising the transaction process and keeping this below ~500ms, if lots is going on such as balance updates this can be a challenge.

I think the data on the buses is retrieved from the bus when it's in the depot so they can update the card balances in the back end. This isn't so much so that they know you have enough money to use the card next time (because the buses don't do realtime validation) but to know enough to send emails to those who have registered warning them of low balances. Also the transaction information is used to update the data warehouse.

Yip, that's what it's used for now.

Online topups can't work necause this isn't real time. If Snapper wanted to launch online topups now for example the Snapper terminal would only be able to update your card balance after the bus has visited a depot and been able to sync it's data.

old3eyes

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#468433 12-May-2011 18:59

sbiddle:
lchiu7:
sbiddle:

Because buses don't have high bandwidth realtime connectivity this can't easily be done - data with Snapper is updated each time the bus enters a depot. With Oyster or Octopus for example the prime use is trains where entry/exit barriers have realtime connectivity and can apply online updates to the card virtually instantly.

There is also the issue of minimising the transaction process and keeping this below ~500ms, if lots is going on such as balance updates this can be a challenge.

I think the data on the buses is retrieved from the bus when it's in the depot so they can update the card balances in the back end. This isn't so much so that they know you have enough money to use the card next time (because the buses don't do realtime validation) but to know enough to send emails to those who have registered warning them of low balances. Also the transaction information is used to update the data warehouse.

Yip, that's what it's used for now.

Online topups can't work necause this isn't real time. If Snapper wanted to launch online topups now for example the Snapper terminal would only be able to update your card balance after the bus has visited a depot and been able to sync it's data.

Why can't they be set up to sync data at the end of each run as they seem to stand for at least 10 minutes + at each end of their trip..

Regards,

Old3eyes

sbiddle

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#468455 12-May-2011 19:39

old3eyes:
sbiddle:
lchiu7:
sbiddle:

Because buses don't have high bandwidth realtime connectivity this can't easily be done - data with Snapper is updated each time the bus enters a depot. With Oyster or Octopus for example the prime use is trains where entry/exit barriers have realtime connectivity and can apply online updates to the card virtually instantly.

There is also the issue of minimising the transaction process and keeping this below ~500ms, if lots is going on such as balance updates this can be a challenge.

I think the data on the buses is retrieved from the bus when it's in the depot so they can update the card balances in the back end. This isn't so much so that they know you have enough money to use the card next time (because the buses don't do realtime validation) but to know enough to send emails to those who have registered warning them of low balances. Also the transaction information is used to update the data warehouse.

Yip, that's what it's used for now.

Online topups can't work necause this isn't real time. If Snapper wanted to launch online topups now for example the Snapper terminal would only be able to update your card balance after the bus has visited a depot and been able to sync it's data.

Why can't they be set up to sync data at the end of each run as they seem to stand for at least 10 minutes + at each end of their trip..

Because that's not a solution. A bus might only return to the depot once or twice a day. What happens when you're sitting at home, top up online and then head out to the bus? Your credit can't be applied.

old3eyes

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#468589 13-May-2011 08:49

sbiddle:
old3eyes:
sbiddle:
lchiu7:
sbiddle:

Because buses don't have high bandwidth realtime connectivity this can't easily be done - data with Snapper is updated each time the bus enters a depot. With Oyster or Octopus for example the prime use is trains where entry/exit barriers have realtime connectivity and can apply online updates to the card virtually instantly.

There is also the issue of minimising the transaction process and keeping this below ~500ms, if lots is going on such as balance updates this can be a challenge.

I think the data on the buses is retrieved from the bus when it's in the depot so they can update the card balances in the back end. This isn't so much so that they know you have enough money to use the card next time (because the buses don't do realtime validation) but to know enough to send emails to those who have registered warning them of low balances. Also the transaction information is used to update the data warehouse.

Yip, that's what it's used for now.

Online topups can't work necause this isn't real time. If Snapper wanted to launch online topups now for example the Snapper terminal would only be able to update your card balance after the bus has visited a depot and been able to sync it's data.

Why can't they be set up to sync data at the end of each run as they seem to stand for at least 10 minutes + at each end of their trip..

Because that's not a solution. A bus might only return to the depot once or twice a day. What happens when you're sitting at home, top up online and then head out to the bus? Your credit can't be applied.

I wasn't talking about going back to the depot. I was talking about the dead time that the bus is at the end terminus. Why can't they update there. After all the have departure info signs at them just add an update transmitter / reciever.. Not sure if your buses in wellington have radios fitted but why can't some for of radio broadcast of updated data be used. This can't be an impossible task can it??

Regards,

Old3eyes

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