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Lightbox

  Reply # 1106348 11-Aug-2014 12:32
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StarBlazer: There is a significant number of people who are experiencing the same issue with motion quality particularly on panning.  

Using DNS/VPN or direct for me makes no difference on my PC and laptops.  The iPad works great on both DNS (UnoTelly) and direct ISP DNS - so I personally would say that the DNS is not the issue in this case.

Question to those who currently have Quickflix - what is the picture quality like?  Is there any motion issues on panning shots and does using a VPN/DNS have any impact?  I would like this question to be excluded so Lightbox can concentrate on whatever the real problem is.  My comments are not meant to be confrontational but the PLP threads spent a lot of time discussing this and we still have an issue with the quality - I actually came very close to buying an ATV3 just so that I could stream to it from the iPad for the "best picture".

If we are going to be told that the only way to get a good picture is via the iPad then huge numbers will be very disappointed and it will be a flop.  To become mass market you need to provide access that the mass of the market has - Netflix has done this and very successfully.  PLP (which I have already mentioned) have the same problem with PC/laptop based streaming but there really is no proper alternative so we put up with it.  VoD is another matter - there are plenty of options.



Silverlight streaming obviously isn't supposed to be jerky.

Us (and others) constantly reminding people about DNS/VPN issues is based in raw evidence (streaming out of edge servers in the US does not help our delivery). We can reliably reproduce it causing issues. It's not the only cause of streaming issues, but it's a significant one - especially on GZ.

I've dropped you a PM with a link to click and some details to give me for further troubleshooting.




Lightbox - we are online TV.

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  Reply # 1106351 11-Aug-2014 12:37
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Lightbox:
StarBlazer: There is a significant number of people who are experiencing the same issue with motion quality particularly on panning.  

Using DNS/VPN or direct for me makes no difference on my PC and laptops.  The iPad works great on both DNS (UnoTelly) and direct ISP DNS - so I personally would say that the DNS is not the issue in this case.

Question to those who currently have Quickflix - what is the picture quality like?  Is there any motion issues on panning shots and does using a VPN/DNS have any impact?  I would like this question to be excluded so Lightbox can concentrate on whatever the real problem is.  My comments are not meant to be confrontational but the PLP threads spent a lot of time discussing this and we still have an issue with the quality - I actually came very close to buying an ATV3 just so that I could stream to it from the iPad for the "best picture".

If we are going to be told that the only way to get a good picture is via the iPad then huge numbers will be very disappointed and it will be a flop.  To become mass market you need to provide access that the mass of the market has - Netflix has done this and very successfully.  PLP (which I have already mentioned) have the same problem with PC/laptop based streaming but there really is no proper alternative so we put up with it.  VoD is another matter - there are plenty of options.



Silverlight streaming obviously isn't supposed to be jerky.

Us (and others) constantly reminding people about DNS/VPN issues is based in raw evidence (streaming out of edge servers in the US does not help our delivery). We can reliably reproduce it causing issues. It's not the only cause of streaming issues, but it's a significant one - especially on GZ.

I've dropped you a PM with a link to click and some details to give me for further troubleshooting.


Om my post a few pages back, I included my connect rates, and also what, if any, traffic was in use on my connection, and what the wifi speedtst was. I feel these can be important.

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Lightbox

  Reply # 1106352 11-Aug-2014 12:38
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jonb:

 

  • ISP and service (DSL, VDSL, fibre, cable, 4G) Telecom ADSL2+
  • VPN or not                                                    not
  • Device (Windows/Mac/iOS)                            windows8.1
  • Browser or app                                             IE11 (desktop version)
  • HDMI out, dual monitor, Airplay                      Laptop screen
  • Date/time                                                    15:30 10/8/14
  • Programme (Season/Episode)                        S1E3/4 "Orphan Black"    (did not try any others)      
  • Time issue happened within the episode          from beginning
  • Issue description                                          no sound.  Confirmed youtube in another tab had sound.  Sound was present on ipad for same episodes.
  • Error code if any present                                n/a


Other issues, some have already been reported.

- IE11 Metro version does not work.  Error to download Silverlight when already installed. Quite a lot of windows 8 users will not understand the concept of desktop version and metro version of IE.

- Would be good to be able to add certain programs to a lower rated profile.  Have one profile rated M, but to watch Orphan Black have to change to R profile.  Would like to just add particular programs to a lower rated profile.

- The Add New Profile UI is a bit confusing.  When user has only the default profile, I clicked Add New Profile and navigates to the edit existing profile entry. Edited the name but could not change the rating. Clicking Save and I saw I had only changed the name of the default entry.  Suggest changing the menu option to 'Profiles', or else create a new profile entry with blank name, or mark the default more clearly as the default.

- As other have suggested, only display adverts rated for the currently logged in profile.  Having Masters of Sex advert shown everytime is not great.

- We don't have a TV, but as others have said, there needs to be an easy way to stream to TV for mass market.  Chromecasts are cheap and could even be bundled, or cost added as a one-off with subscription.


Thanks for your input.

Sounds plays fine on PC here for those episodes. Could you confirm that you've not muted the player?

I've logged the Metro IE issue for reproduction in house. The other inputs are already present in our bug tracking.




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  Reply # 1106357 11-Aug-2014 12:42
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Lightbox: Silverlight streaming obviously isn't supposed to be jerky.

Us (and others) constantly reminding people about DNS/VPN issues is based in raw evidence (streaming out of edge servers in the US does not help our delivery). We can reliably reproduce it causing issues. It's not the only cause of streaming issues, but it's a significant one - especially on GZ.

I've dropped you a PM with a link to click and some details to give me for further troubleshooting.


Folks, shall I remind you, AGAIN, to try Lightbox with your friendly local DNS service (ISP)?







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  Reply # 1106385 11-Aug-2014 12:57
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I would appreciate a pm with the diagnostic link also. I've demonstrated my willingness to troubleshoot this and I have both Snap and Spark VDSL lines on which I can do testing.

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Lightbox

  Reply # 1106387 11-Aug-2014 13:03
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fahrenheit: I would appreciate a pm with the diagnostic link also. I've demonstrated my willingness to troubleshoot this and I have both Snap and Spark VDSL lines on which I can do testing.


I'll send one through.




Lightbox - we are online TV.

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Lightbox

  Reply # 1106661 11-Aug-2014 18:42
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So here are the results of one of the diagnostic links I sent through earlier (IPs removed for privacy):

 

 

 

 

Client IP

 

x.x.x.x (AUCKLAND, NZ)

 

 

 

Client DNS IP

 

x.x.x.x (PORTLAND, OR US)

 

 

 

Akamai Edge Server IP

 

x.x.x.x (SEATTLE, WA US)

 

 

 

 


So if this users streams video, the following happens: The video is requested from the Seattle server to Auckland. Since it isn't cached on that server, it's then retrieved from the origin server in Auckland, so the traffic travels twice across the Pacific, which isn't going to help your streaming and is going to make everything pretty unresponsive.

Again, not the cause of all trouble, but an important step in fault isolation.




Lightbox - we are online TV.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1106686 11-Aug-2014 19:33
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Lightbox:
StarBlazer: There is a significant number of people who are experiencing the same issue with motion quality particularly on panning.  

Using DNS/VPN or direct for me makes no difference on my PC and laptops.  The iPad works great on both DNS (UnoTelly) and direct ISP DNS - so I personally would say that the DNS is not the issue in this case.

Question to those who currently have Quickflix - what is the picture quality like?  Is there any motion issues on panning shots and does using a VPN/DNS have any impact?  I would like this question to be excluded so Lightbox can concentrate on whatever the real problem is.  My comments are not meant to be confrontational but the PLP threads spent a lot of time discussing this and we still have an issue with the quality - I actually came very close to buying an ATV3 just so that I could stream to it from the iPad for the "best picture".

If we are going to be told that the only way to get a good picture is via the iPad then huge numbers will be very disappointed and it will be a flop.  To become mass market you need to provide access that the mass of the market has - Netflix has done this and very successfully.  PLP (which I have already mentioned) have the same problem with PC/laptop based streaming but there really is no proper alternative so we put up with it.  VoD is another matter - there are plenty of options.



Silverlight streaming obviously isn't supposed to be jerky.

Us (and others) constantly reminding people about DNS/VPN issues is based in raw evidence (streaming out of edge servers in the US does not help our delivery). We can reliably reproduce it causing issues. It's not the only cause of streaming issues, but it's a significant one - especially on GZ.

I've dropped you a PM with a link to click and some details to give me for further troubleshooting.
Hi I haven't got a PM, should I have? Thanks




Procrastination eventually pays off.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1106823 12-Aug-2014 01:27
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User interface annoyance: whenever you login, it defaults to the main account profile. I keep setting mine to a profile I created for the kids, entitled "Kids", but it doesn't stick between sessions.

IMHO Lightbox should remember and reopen the last used / last logged in profile. Or at least have a setting to make this possible.

301 posts

Ultimate Geek
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Lightbox

  Reply # 1106855 12-Aug-2014 08:47
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StarBlazer: Hi I haven't got a PM, should I have? Thanks


Hi,

Just sent you a new private message - the other one was sitting in my outbox, but was unread (duh). Not sure what the trouble is?

/Jakob




Lightbox - we are online TV.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1107020 12-Aug-2014 12:50
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Lightbox: So here are the results of one of the diagnostic links I sent through earlier (IPs removed for privacy):

Client IP x.x.x.x (AUCKLAND, NZ) Client DNS IP x.x.x.x (PORTLAND, OR US) Akamai Edge Server IP x.x.x.x (SEATTLE, WA US)
So if this users streams video, the following happens: The video is requested from the Seattle server to Auckland. Since it isn't cached on that server, it's then retrieved from the origin server in Auckland, so the traffic travels twice across the Pacific, which isn't going to help your streaming and is going to make everything pretty unresponsive.

Again, not the cause of all trouble, but an important step in fault isolation.

Okay, so I'm not an expert - don't pretend to be.  

Perhaps somebody can explain why if the traffic is being bounced over the pacific a couple of times that should affect the playback experience.

In my limited knowledge, I would presume I am not "streaming" the content directly from the server but that I am actually buffering (downloading) small chunks of the video and while I am playing this back my machine is getting the next chunk.  As long as the internet connection I have is fast enough, then I should have the next chunk of video ready to play as it gets to the end of the current chunk otherwise it will pause while it buffers the next chunk.  If I were to guess, then I would say that each chunk is probably at least around the 30 second size to avoid server overhead in dealing with small requests or constantly open connections.

Considering the issue I am seeing, is that video appears to "stutter" every 1-2 seconds consistently throughout the playback of the video, the distance between the servers or the number of round trips is probably not a factor.  If it were an issue then I would expect to see it even more when I watch the BBC, Netflix or YouTube.

What is a factor in playback, streamed or local, is encoding particularly if the frame rate is wrong or if someone in the chain has interlaced or de-interlaced poorly.  

I hope the diagnostics I sent through are helpful but as I have said (like a broken record) before, I don't believe that it is a coincidence that PLP who are hosting off the same servers (from what I've read) are also having the same playback issues.

Thank you for your continued analysis on this.




Procrastination eventually pays off.

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  Reply # 1107027 12-Aug-2014 13:04
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StarBlazer:
Lightbox: So here are the results of one of the diagnostic links I sent through earlier (IPs removed for privacy):

Client IP x.x.x.x (AUCKLAND, NZ) Client DNS IP x.x.x.x (PORTLAND, OR US) Akamai Edge Server IP x.x.x.x (SEATTLE, WA US)
So if this users streams video, the following happens: The video is requested from the Seattle server to Auckland. Since it isn't cached on that server, it's then retrieved from the origin server in Auckland, so the traffic travels twice across the Pacific, which isn't going to help your streaming and is going to make everything pretty unresponsive.

Again, not the cause of all trouble, but an important step in fault isolation.

Okay, so I'm not an expert - don't pretend to be.  

Perhaps somebody can explain why if the traffic is being bounced over the pacific a couple of times that should affect the playback experience.

In my limited knowledge, I would presume I am not "streaming" the content directly from the server but that I am actually buffering (downloading) small chunks of the video and while I am playing this back my machine is getting the next chunk.  As long as the internet connection I have is fast enough, then I should have the next chunk of video ready to play as it gets to the end of the current chunk otherwise it will pause while it buffers the next chunk.  If I were to guess, then I would say that each chunk is probably at least around the 30 second size to avoid server overhead in dealing with small requests or constantly open connections.

Considering the issue I am seeing, is that video appears to "stutter" every 1-2 seconds consistently throughout the playback of the video, the distance between the servers or the number of round trips is probably not a factor.  If it were an issue then I would expect to see it even more when I watch the BBC, Netflix or YouTube.

What is a factor in playback, streamed or local, is encoding particularly if the frame rate is wrong or if someone in the chain has interlaced or de-interlaced poorly.  

I hope the diagnostics I sent through are helpful but as I have said (like a broken record) before, I don't believe that it is a coincidence that PLP who are hosting off the same servers (from what I've read) are also having the same playback issues.

Thank you for your continued analysis on this.


As an FYI that may help this specific issue, when I play, it buffers for what seems about 3 to 4 seconds. Counts 0% to 100% quickly, then plays.

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Ultimate Geek
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Lightbox

  Reply # 1107029 12-Aug-2014 13:17
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sultanoswing: User interface annoyance: whenever you login, it defaults to the main account profile. I keep setting mine to a profile I created for the kids, entitled "Kids", but it doesn't stick between sessions.

IMHO Lightbox should remember and reopen the last used / last logged in profile. Or at least have a setting to make this possible.


Hi,

If you tick "Remember me", it'll keep you on the previous profile. It shouldn't be changing to default profile except if you manually log out and in. Since anyone who logs in manually must know the password, they'd be able to change the parental control settings as well...




Lightbox - we are online TV.

301 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 103

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Lightbox

  Reply # 1107036 12-Aug-2014 13:27
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StarBlazer: 
Okay, so I'm not an expert - don't pretend to be.  

Perhaps somebody can explain why if the traffic is being bounced over the pacific a couple of times that should affect the playback experience.

In my limited knowledge, I would presume I am not "streaming" the content directly from the server but that I am actually buffering (downloading) small chunks of the video and while I am playing this back my machine is getting the next chunk.  As long as the internet connection I have is fast enough, then I should have the next chunk of video ready to play as it gets to the end of the current chunk otherwise it will pause while it buffers the next chunk.  If I were to guess, then I would say that each chunk is probably at least around the 30 second size to avoid server overhead in dealing with small requests or constantly open connections.

Considering the issue I am seeing, is that video appears to "stutter" every 1-2 seconds consistently throughout the playback of the video, the distance between the servers or the number of round trips is probably not a factor.  If it were an issue then I would expect to see it even more when I watch the BBC, Netflix or YouTube.

What is a factor in playback, streamed or local, is encoding particularly if the frame rate is wrong or if someone in the chain has interlaced or de-interlaced poorly.  

I hope the diagnostics I sent through are helpful but as I have said (like a broken record) before, I don't believe that it is a coincidence that PLP who are hosting off the same servers (from what I've read) are also having the same playback issues.

Thank you for your continued analysis on this.


I am no expert either (though I do sometimes pretend to be) - but I work closely with some people who are. 

The further you traffic travels, the more latency, potential congestion or packet loss you'll generally incur. So your traffic will be affected in terms of how quickly it can be delivered and at what quality. For video buffering, frame drops or other behaviour can certainly come out of this.

When you watch Netflix/BBC, you're requesting a stream from the US/UK to NZ. When you're using Lightbox with a Seattle DNS, you're requesting a stream from NZ to be sent to the US and then back again to NZ. So no, you shouldn't be seeing it even more, since it's only doing half the global circumnavigation that you're asking our traffic to do.





Lightbox - we are online TV.

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  Reply # 1107044 12-Aug-2014 13:45
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Lightbox:
StarBlazer: 
Okay, so I'm not an expert - don't pretend to be.  

Perhaps somebody can explain why if the traffic is being bounced over the pacific a couple of times that should affect the playback experience.

In my limited knowledge, I would presume I am not "streaming" the content directly from the server but that I am actually buffering (downloading) small chunks of the video and while I am playing this back my machine is getting the next chunk.  As long as the internet connection I have is fast enough, then I should have the next chunk of video ready to play as it gets to the end of the current chunk otherwise it will pause while it buffers the next chunk.  If I were to guess, then I would say that each chunk is probably at least around the 30 second size to avoid server overhead in dealing with small requests or constantly open connections.

Considering the issue I am seeing, is that video appears to "stutter" every 1-2 seconds consistently throughout the playback of the video, the distance between the servers or the number of round trips is probably not a factor.  If it were an issue then I would expect to see it even more when I watch the BBC, Netflix or YouTube.

What is a factor in playback, streamed or local, is encoding particularly if the frame rate is wrong or if someone in the chain has interlaced or de-interlaced poorly.  

I hope the diagnostics I sent through are helpful but as I have said (like a broken record) before, I don't believe that it is a coincidence that PLP who are hosting off the same servers (from what I've read) are also having the same playback issues.

Thank you for your continued analysis on this.


I am no expert either (though I do sometimes pretend to be) - but I work closely with some people who are. 

The further you traffic travels, the more latency, potential congestion or packet loss you'll generally incur. So your traffic will be affected in terms of how quickly it can be delivered and at what quality. For video buffering, frame drops or other behaviour can certainly come out of this.

When you watch Netflix/BBC, you're requesting a stream from the US/UK to NZ. When you're using Lightbox with a Seattle DNS, you're requesting a stream from NZ to be sent to the US and then back again to NZ. So no, you shouldn't be seeing it even more, since it's only doing half the global circumnavigation that you're asking our traffic to do.


Cool thanks for that.  

For more anecdotal evidence, Lightbox using the Vodafone DNS takes around 3-4 seconds to buffer.  Once it's playing I can skip back and forward pretty much instantly.  This doesn't change if I'm on a VPN to the US and neither is there any change in the visual appearance of the video.  

Netflix on the other hand takes around 6-10 seconds to buffer and each skip forward takes around 3 seconds.  This is the kind of effect I would expect using a VPN with poor latency.  Yet the video playback is smooth - also what I would expect.

So back to the question, does the video buffer in packets and if so what length?  I would have thought if I had received a video block, regardless of how long it took to arrive, it should still play smoothly - is this wrong?

Thanks




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