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  Reply # 1413472 25-Oct-2015 13:22
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joker97:
tdgeek: I get that. Its about the win, thats fine with me. We intended to play a low try scoring game in order to keep them off our half. And we snuck in two ties, one of which was marginal in terms of the pass to Barrett. Thats all good, but if you play that game, then you cannot gift 18 penalty points to SA. Glad the forward pass to Barrett wasnt whistled. Glad DC got his first drop goal in forever. Two tries to nil in a game that both teams played to be defensive, and we just got home, but IMO for the wrong reasons. Two tries in a intentionally played low scoring game is huge, but all they did was offset our gifting points. Thats a toss a coin game IMO. 


Nobody has a game plan to score as few tries as possible lol.

The way i read it they want to pin the Boks in their corner and challenge them into mistakes and play a territory game And attack them from inside their 22. We got tries doing that.

The alternative is grind metre by metre by metre slowly into the 22. Did you see how good their tackling and turn over ability was?

So i rate them 8/10 on their execution of game plan. Yeah the other 2/10 gave away lots of penalties but that's the way it is. If you are suggesting a crap match then this must be your first RWC.


Lol? Sigh.  The plan was exactly that, a low scoring game. Why? To keep them out of our half, which obviously reduces tries, as we don't run the ball, unless we are in a close spot to chance that risk. Or we could run everything, and score more, and allow more in. Its fine to play the kick it away game, but in a game plan thats low scoring you don't want to give away 18 points.

And no, lol,  penalties, thats not the way it is. 13 to 6 against us. 2 each or 16 each, then they can average out. If we continue to do that, Foley will do the same as our ill discipline is just giving the opposition a head start

And no, its not my first RWC, but I'll take heed from the lounge room coaches here



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  Reply # 1413503 25-Oct-2015 14:02
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Guys let's try and keep things civil. Let's focus on the important thing which is we are in the final!

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1413508 25-Oct-2015 14:05
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I alternated between Prime's and ITV's coverage eventually settling for ITV's because I prefer that commentary and the after-match comments even though it was delayed about 30s  ( :-)  )

On the subject of comments, I found these comments by Jonny Wilkinson very informative about the issues SA's 10 and the forwards had confronting NZ's tactics.

Apologise for the poor quality of the video but I don't know of any way (apart from using a camera) to capture ITV's streaming video.  But you can hear the comments pretty easily.

https://youtu.be/EjodNs4gP6k

They are very insightful about the lack of options SA's 10 had and how frustrating it must have been for him. From somebody who knows!






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  Reply # 1413509 25-Oct-2015 14:09
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Indeed. We could win or lose next week, but either way I'm very proud of how our boys handle themselves on and off the field.

I read an article last week that explained how the current team culture came to be on the back of a loss to SA in 2004. Worth a read if you didn't catch it.
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11533366

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  Reply # 1413511 25-Oct-2015 14:11
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networkn: Guys let's try and keep things civil. Let's focus on the important thing which is we are in the final!


Yep, true. I take back my final line on my post. We all have opinions, would also be good for those who disagree to be proactive and discuss the point, without name calling

5am, next Sunday, I feel an annual leave day coming on

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  Reply # 1413514 25-Oct-2015 14:16
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lchiu7: I alternated between Prime's and ITV's coverage eventually settling for ITV's because I prefer that commentary and the after-match comments even though it was delayed about 30s  ( :-)  )

On the subject of comments, I found these comments by Jonny Wilkinson very informative about the issues SA's 10 and the forwards had confronting NZ's tactics.

Apologise for the poor quality of the video but I don't know of any way (apart from using a camera) to capture ITV's streaming video.  But you can hear the comments pretty easily.

https://youtu.be/EjodNs4gP6k

They are very insightful about the lack of options SA's 10 had and how frustrating it must have been for him. From somebody who knows!




Interesting.. I feel like in the case of SA that's called their game plan though? Options or not, their first five's generally kick.


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  Reply # 1413525 25-Oct-2015 14:58
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tdgeek:
joker97:
tdgeek: I get that. Its about the win, thats fine with me. We intended to play a low try scoring game in order to keep them off our half. And we snuck in two ties, one of which was marginal in terms of the pass to Barrett. Thats all good, but if you play that game, then you cannot gift 18 penalty points to SA. Glad the forward pass to Barrett wasnt whistled. Glad DC got his first drop goal in forever. Two tries to nil in a game that both teams played to be defensive, and we just got home, but IMO for the wrong reasons. Two tries in a intentionally played low scoring game is huge, but all they did was offset our gifting points. Thats a toss a coin game IMO. 


Nobody has a game plan to score as few tries as possible lol.

The way i read it they want to pin the Boks in their corner and challenge them into mistakes and play a territory game And attack them from inside their 22. We got tries doing that.

The alternative is grind metre by metre by metre slowly into the 22. Did you see how good their tackling and turn over ability was?

So i rate them 8/10 on their execution of game plan. Yeah the other 2/10 gave away lots of penalties but that's the way it is. If you are suggesting a crap match then this must be your first RWC.


Lol? Sigh.  The plan was exactly that, a low scoring game. Why? To keep them out of our half, which obviously reduces tries, as we don't run the ball, unless we are in a close spot to chance that risk. Or we could run everything, and score more, and allow more in. Its fine to play the kick it away game, but in a game plan thats low scoring you don't want to give away 18 points.

And no, lol,  penalties, thats not the way it is. 13 to 6 against us. 2 each or 16 each, then they can average out. If we continue to do that, Foley will do the same as our ill discipline is just giving the opposition a head start

And no, its not my first RWC, but I'll take heed from the lounge room coaches here


I'll be as objective as I can, and give some statistics on why I think 2 tries to none is quite normal for a RWC SF.
2011 SF
Wales 8 (1 try) France 9 (0)
Australia 6 (0 try) NZ 20 (1 try)

2007
England 14 (1 try) France 9 (0)
SA 37 (4 tries) Arg 13 (1)

2003
NZ 10 (1 try) Aus 22 (1)
France 7 (1 try) Eng 24 (0)

1999
Aus 27 (0) SA 21 (0)
Fra 43 (4 tries) NZ 21 (3)

Believe it or not, of those matches, 1999 Aus - SA SF was the most entertaining. Man did SA try hard to score tries, and almost everyone in the Australian team had a try saving tackle or holding up the ball behind the try line!

In terms of their tactics on getting tries, nailing SA into their own 22 and playing the game there is a very good idea and quite well done. And as someone's youtube shows JW saying their 10 gets the ball, they don't know what to do. If they had JW, he would return the kick into NZ's 22, make sure it bounces and then leaves the field of play, to force NZ into a defensive line out. But no one could do that. Other than that, most people who criticize SA or the game being "ugly" severely underestimated SA.

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  Reply # 1413528 25-Oct-2015 15:19
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blair003:
lchiu7: I alternated between Prime's and ITV's coverage eventually settling for ITV's because I prefer that commentary and the after-match comments even though it was delayed about 30s  ( :-)  )

On the subject of comments, I found these comments by Jonny Wilkinson very informative about the issues SA's 10 and the forwards had confronting NZ's tactics.

Apologise for the poor quality of the video but I don't know of any way (apart from using a camera) to capture ITV's streaming video.  But you can hear the comments pretty easily.

https://youtu.be/EjodNs4gP6k

They are very insightful about the lack of options SA's 10 had and how frustrating it must have been for him. From somebody who knows!




Interesting.. I feel like in the case of SA that's called their game plan though? Options or not, their first five's generally kick.



I note when Conrad Smith was interviewed he was asked about how great it was for Dan Carter to be a WC final finally. He said it was great, that Dan and Aaron played very well and on this type of day and tactics, he spent most of his time standing in position or talking to his mates :-)  So he wasn't expecting to get the ball much and for defence, since the Boks didn't take the ball much past the forwards, he didn't have much to do there either.




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  Reply # 1413530 25-Oct-2015 15:23
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It was a pretty poor game, due to the way SA played. It just goes to show that tries and conversions need to be worth more points, as two milked penalties are worth more than an unconverted try.

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  Reply # 1413532 25-Oct-2015 15:24
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Tks Joker for the detail, a good read.

I agree as well. I don't really have an issue with the game plan, not at all. Entertainment wise this morning wasn't up there, but it's a knockout a win is a win. My concern is playing that game and having the penalty count we did. A two try to none game went to 2 points. Foley can kick too. That bothers me. A lot. I suspect oz will try to suck us into penalties but no doubt SH will talk about that.
If we lose, I want them to win not us to lose.


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  Reply # 1413536 25-Oct-2015 15:33
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Was fatigue perhaps part of the game plan? We kept going up the middle, which is more their game than ours. Was the final 20 mins going to be rewarded when they start to fade fitness wise?

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  Reply # 1413540 25-Oct-2015 15:42
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tdgeek: Tks Joker for the detail, a good read.

I agree as well. I don't really have an issue with the game plan, not at all. Entertainment wise this morning wasn't up there, but it's a knockout a win is a win. My concern is playing that game and having the penalty count we did. A two try to none game went to 2 points. Foley can kick too. That bothers me. A lot. I suspect oz will try to suck us into penalties but no doubt SH will talk about that.
If we lose, I want them to win not us to lose.



The problem is that semis and finals in the world cup are often poor spectacle games with few tries, due to one or both of the teams playing defensively, and relying on milking penalties, and the opponents making errors, for their points. You only have to look at the last world cup final. It isn't helped by penalties being worth so may points. 

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  Reply # 1413542 25-Oct-2015 15:46
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mattwnz:
tdgeek: Tks Joker for the detail, a good read.

I agree as well. I don't really have an issue with the game plan, not at all. Entertainment wise this morning wasn't up there, but it's a knockout a win is a win. My concern is playing that game and having the penalty count we did. A two try to none game went to 2 points. Foley can kick too. That bothers me. A lot. I suspect oz will try to suck us into penalties but no doubt SH will talk about that.
If we lose, I want them to win not us to lose.



The problem is that semis and finals in the world cup are often poor spectacle games with few tries, due to one or both of the teams playing defensively, and relying on milking penalties, and the opponents making errors, for their points. You only have to look at the last world cup final. It isn't helped by penalties being worth so may points. 


there's another game, exactly addresses every point. it's called league.

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  Reply # 1413546 25-Oct-2015 15:57
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If they increased points for tries or decreased penalty points, milking is still worth it. Like a guy on top so the one holding the ball can't release. Make that a turnover, or even better, blow whistle, guy who can't release, is allowed to release. If a penalty is a real penalty, breaking the rules, 5 in the bin? Yes that harsh, but it would cover two issues. 1. They will stop it. 2. If penalties are worth less, there is motivation to push the rule, as it's less harm, so that might encourage more marginal pushing the boundaries of the rule, more penalties, less flow. Maybe a two strike rule, second time, in the bin for 5. It needs to be about negative rewarding for penalties, to basically, reduce penalty infringements.

Make a penalty an automatic one point to the opposition? Two if in the opposition half?


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  Reply # 1413547 25-Oct-2015 16:01
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Here's Graham Henry's analysis:

"It will be great for next week because they didn't play particularly well but they did the job," Henry told Newstalk ZB sports host Tony Veitch after the game.

"I was concerned because we hadn't played well in the first half, we'd kicked a lot of ball away, we didn't look sharp, our scrum was under a bit of pressure and we had given a lot of penalties away. There's lot to work on but psychologically that's good for next week.

"At the end of the day, we were the better side. We scored two tries to none. The Springboks never looked like scoring tries. It was just that we kept them in the game by giving away penalties which was a bit irritating.

"They will be a bit disappointed about how they played but they will be delighted they are in the final and they will play well next week, there's no doubt about it.

"I've got a feeling this game will do them a huge amount of good. Last week's game against the French, in actual fact, was actually pretty counter-productive. They won too easily. People are human and when you win easily you probably get a wee bit of an inflated opinion of your own ability and it just gives you a false sense of security.

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