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  # 2349005 6-Nov-2019 14:10
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Australia's problem for many years is that they had players who considered themselves bigger than the team, it was a serious issue and part of the reason Robbie Deans couldn't get the results he should have. They had players who could call the CEO anytime they disagreed with the coach and who required special attention. It wasn't really resolved until Michael Chieka came in, on the condition he had final say over the players and their roles in the team. Say what you want about the guy, but he completely turned the team culture around.  The issue now, in my opinion, isn't the team or the players, but the management and unless the coach who takes over can get a better relationship with management and resolve a few other key issues, I don't see results going their way regardless of who's coaching. I see MC's main fault being he was very good as a players coach, and perhaps a big-picture guy, but not particularly good as a details guy and a horrible horrible selector (too prone to allowing his feelings to dictate above all else). I feel it's correct what he said about not really studying his opposition and insisting on one style of play with complete disregard to the other team. External Selector was a great step for Australian Rugby, as it was for NZ too in it's time (Something I hope they will continue with post-Hansen). I feel Joseph and Brown would resolve those key areas, but the one thing I really don't think would work is Kiwi's coaching Australians.

 

Castle and Co need to go, for Australian Rugby to move forward really successfully, and success under a new coach would be in spite of them, not because of it. Rod Kafer is someone I feel has the understanding of what's required.

 

Coaches for NZ, I personally think Foster should be given the role, but I wouldn't be too upset if it went to Joseph and or Robertson (though I suspect there is a risk given he hasn't done any international coaching really). If Foster wasn't given head coach, I believe it would be a mistake to discard him, so I wonder about a director of Rugby role, so we don't lose all that IP.  If Foster isn't retained in some significant capacity, I think he'd feel justifiably poorly treated, and if you take into account the players we are losing, then Hansen Foster, Cron, Smith (who went a while ago), Tew, and possibly Enoka and Shand, we are pretty much tossing out the last 15 years of knowledge gained.

 

Some might say that starting completely afresh is a good thing, but I believe it would result in a pretty mixed bag for NZR for the next 2-3 Years.

 

 


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  # 2349072 6-Nov-2019 18:30
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Personally I think that Foster and Robertson need to do a stint overseas, preferably in Europe, to round out their CVs. I think it makes a real difference to see different styles of games and really understand different approaches.

 

New Zealand rugby is an echo chamber which has been increasingly dominated by the All Blacks. I'm not convinced that's been entirely healthy and there are some really significant problems outside the All Blacks environment. I'm pleased that Mark Robinson is on the panel as the new coach needs to be his guy, not some one foisted on him by Tew. The Cheika - Castle issues are a pretty clear example of what happens when there's a disconnect there.

 

I think a New Zealander could coach the Wallabies very successfully but they need to be someone who will adapt, not try and turn the Wallabies into the All Blacks. Deans came from a very controlled, very stable coaching environment into the wild west and never really adapted the way he went about it. He probably didn't have the right type of personality to be successful in that job, I don't think that managing very different stakeholders was one of his strengths.

 

It's pretty similar to Hansen not being at all liked by a lot of the Welsh from his time there but Gatland is loved. They are just different types of people, at different points in their careers, who will function better in different environments.


 
 
 
 


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  # 2349078 6-Nov-2019 19:28
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Handle9:

 

Personally I think that Foster and Robertson need to do a stint overseas, preferably in Europe, to round out their CVs. I think it makes a real difference to see different styles of games and really understand different approaches.

 

New Zealand rugby is an echo chamber which has been increasingly dominated by the All Blacks. I'm not convinced that's been entirely healthy and there are some really significant problems outside the All Blacks environment. I'm pleased that Mark Robinson is on the panel as the new coach needs to be his guy, not some one foisted on him by Tew. The Cheika - Castle issues are a pretty clear example of what happens when there's a disconnect there.

 

I think a New Zealander could coach the Wallabies very successfully but they need to be someone who will adapt, not try and turn the Wallabies into the All Blacks. Deans came from a very controlled, very stable coaching environment into the wild west and never really adapted the way he went about it. He probably didn't have the right type of personality to be successful in that job, I don't think that managing very different stakeholders was one of his strengths.

 

It's pretty similar to Hansen not being at all liked by a lot of the Welsh from his time there but Gatland is loved. They are just different types of people, at different points in their careers, who will function better in different environments.

 

 

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  # 2349088 6-Nov-2019 20:31
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I suspect that the dynamic between Joseph and Brown could be tested significantly as AB's coaches. I believe there probably isn't a more high-pressure job in NZ, especially when the AB's are losing. If they are winning, whilst there is still significant pressure, the real pressure comes on if they aren't, which is somewhat possible, even likely, for the next couple of years. The Highlanders would have had some pressure, but people generally hoped the Highlanders would win a title, rather than expected them to, and with Japan, given their lowly world ranking, any ranking improvement would have been acceptable, as expectations were understandably low. Joseph was also able to take his best players out of circulation for the majority of the year and dedicate massive amounts of time into them, something the AB's coach never has the luxury of, considering other Rugby competitions that our top players are involved in.

 

I'll be interested to see what teams are formed by the head coaches as part of their proposals, namely who will be defence coach for these top candidates. Both Foster and Robertson wanted Brown.

 

 


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  # 2349089 6-Nov-2019 20:34
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networkn:

 

I suspect that the dynamic between Joseph and Brown could be tested significantly as AB's coaches. I believe there probably isn't a more high-pressure job in NZ, especially when the AB's are losing. If they are winning, whilst there is still significant pressure, the real pressure comes on if they aren't, which is somewhat possible, even likely, for the next couple of years. The Highlanders would have had some pressure, but people generally hoped the Highlanders would win a title, rather than expected them to, and with Japan, given their lowly world ranking, any ranking improvement would have been acceptable, as expectations were understandably low. Joseph was also able to take his best players out of circulation for the majority of the year and dedicate massive amounts of time into them, something the AB's coach never has the luxury of, considering other Rugby competitions that our top players are involved in.

 

I'll be interested to see what teams are formed by the head coaches as part of their proposals, namely who will be defence coach for these top candidates. Both Foster and Robertson wanted Brown.

 

 

You can say that of all the candidates. None of them have been head coaches of NZ. Being the assistant is a long way away from the media pressure that comes with being the head coach.


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  # 2349090 6-Nov-2019 20:40
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Handle9:
tukapa1:

 

Handle9: Tony Brown has confirmed he'll stay with Jamie Joseph, ideally with the All Blacks but if that doesn't happen then elsewhere.

It says a lot for both men that he's chosen his mate over a particular job.

 

 

 

But not if he goes to Aussie.

 



Because?

 

 

 

He said he wants to stay with Joseph, but he wouldn't if Joseph took the Aussie side.

 

 


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  # 2349095 6-Nov-2019 21:11
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tukapa1:

 

Handle9:
tukapa1:

 

Handle9: Tony Brown has confirmed he'll stay with Jamie Joseph, ideally with the All Blacks but if that doesn't happen then elsewhere.

It says a lot for both men that he's chosen his mate over a particular job.

 

 

 

But not if he goes to Aussie.

 



Because?

 

He said he wants to stay with Joseph, but he wouldn't if Joseph took the Aussie side.

 

 

Thanks, I hadn't seen that on the clip I watched


 
 
 
 




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  # 2349099 6-Nov-2019 21:18
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I'd say the chances of Joseph coaching Australia are as close to zero as could be gotten.




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  # 2349112 6-Nov-2019 21:26
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Handle9:

 

networkn:

 

I suspect that the dynamic between Joseph and Brown could be tested significantly as AB's coaches. I believe there probably isn't a more high-pressure job in NZ, especially when the AB's are losing. If they are winning, whilst there is still significant pressure, the real pressure comes on if they aren't, which is somewhat possible, even likely, for the next couple of years. The Highlanders would have had some pressure, but people generally hoped the Highlanders would win a title, rather than expected them to, and with Japan, given their lowly world ranking, any ranking improvement would have been acceptable, as expectations were understandably low. Joseph was also able to take his best players out of circulation for the majority of the year and dedicate massive amounts of time into them, something the AB's coach never has the luxury of, considering other Rugby competitions that our top players are involved in.

 

I'll be interested to see what teams are formed by the head coaches as part of their proposals, namely who will be defence coach for these top candidates. Both Foster and Robertson wanted Brown.

 

 

You can say that of all the candidates. None of them have been head coaches of NZ. Being the assistant is a long way away from the media pressure that comes with being the head coach.

 

 

More to the point, none of them has been head coaches of a top tier international Rugby team.  Foster is easily the closest given his time under Steve Hansen, in the environment, familiar with the pressure. I'd say they shared the pressure in that group, pretty evenly.

 

Robertson has been very successful in all his coaching roles, but I am inclined to agree, that some time overseas, Northern Hemisphere specifically, would be a good addition to his knowledge.

 

The overarching point I was making is that to me on top of being a good coaching duo, Joseph and Brown are friends, loyal friends, but as a result of this, could either of them be mercenary involving the other if it was for the good of the team? Robertson has shown his ruthless side on more than one occasion. 

 

 




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  # 2349493 7-Nov-2019 15:15
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Sam Whitelock probably dropped 8KG dropping that beard. He looks 20 years younger too. Quite the improvement over the abandoned bush man look he had going on before.

 

Hopefully, it doesn't remove his super powers too!

 

 




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  # 2357310 19-Nov-2019 15:41
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So, down to 2 main contenders. It would be interesting to see if they could work together in some capacity. Recent articles suggested Robertson as head coach and Foster continuing as an assistant, but I could imagine that being a bitter pill to swallow for Foster who will feel he did his time as an assistant and was loyal to NZ Rugby. It would make more sense in my view for Robertson to be an assistant, but I am not sure that would work given he has clearly stated he wants the top job.

 

If the prevailing view is that international experience is key, they are now out of option givens Rennie (thankfully) and Joseph dropped out.  

 

I didn't originally think that international experience was so important, but I have changed my mind on that. I do feel Robertson especially would benefit from it, and he is still relatively young. I think he is an excellent coach though, and I think he would bring something quite different. 

 

 

 

 

 

On another note, post RWC most of the Hansen, press and commentary seems to indicate that the AB's felt their loss was a blip rather than indicative of a serious issue of not having a strong enough pack for example.  More of a bad day, than the wrong plan/team/whatever.  It would be so excellent if they could play that game again on a different day and see what the result would have been. 

 

 

 

@handle9 do you think if the AB's had won against England, they would have beaten SA?

 

 




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  # 2357737 20-Nov-2019 11:45
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Dave Rennie the new Coach of Australia!

 

I think it's quite interesting that Ralene Castle said today the announcement was the culmination of 6 months of work searching for the new coach.

 

Considering there was no formal announcement that Chieka was to step down regardless of the result of Australias RWC, it seems a bit strange. He only resigned the day after their loss a month ago. 

 

If he was being replaced regardless, you'd think that would have been announced.

 

 


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  # 2357896 20-Nov-2019 13:01
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i think major organizations with big ambitions always plan big and they always plan ahead and have many options available at all times if possible

 

so yes they were going to book cheiks (unless he won the cup) or we'll never know





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  # 2358150 20-Nov-2019 18:21
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networkn:

 

@handle9 do you think if the AB's had won against England, they would have beaten SA?

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. Both sides have played incredibly close games over the last few years. I think we matched up a little better than against England but if they scrummed against us like they did against England I think we would have suffered the same fate.


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  # 2358154 20-Nov-2019 18:30
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networkn:

 

Dave Rennie the new Coach of Australia!

 

I think it's quite interesting that Ralene Castle said today the announcement was the culmination of 6 months of work searching for the new coach.

 

Considering there was no formal announcement that Chieka was to step down regardless of the result of Australias RWC, it seems a bit strange. He only resigned the day after their loss a month ago. 

 

If he was being replaced regardless, you'd think that would have been announced.

 

 

If an organisation isn't actively planning for succession in it's key roles the leadership is being negligent. This doesn't necessarily mean that they planned for Cheika to go, more that they identified their likely successors if he did go.

 

Cheika stated that he would go if he was unsuccessful at the world cup. It was never likely that he would be successful. The relationship breakdowns between him and the leadership of the ARU also meant he was unlikely to be reappointed unless he won the world cup and they essentially had to reappoint him.

 

They appear to have been far more proactive that NZ Rugby, who have behaved fairly arrogantly and now are struggling to get a strong range of candidates to apply. Gregor Paul wrote a good piece in the Herald where he said that candidates like Gatland, Joseph and Rennie were far more likely to be available if the process had been run at the start of the year. It would have also disconnected the process from the World Cup results which objectively may have been a good thing.

 

 


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