Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#2912699 11-May-2022 16:13

Handle9:

I really have no idea what Foster has been trying to achieve. He hasn't made decisions about who his core players are, he has just seemed to roll the dice each week. The only players you could call reasonable certainties to start are Whitelock, Rettalick, Savea, Cane, Smith and Jordie Barrett. None of those players have been introduced since the last world cup and only Rieko and Akira Ioane and Jordie Barrett have made significant progress since the last world cup. The rest have largely muddled along.

I think that's probably a tough assessment of what's been happening. I don't really think that many players have laid claim to jerseys the way AB's of the prior generation did. I think he has been changing it up because they aren't getting the results from players consistently. A good example is that Havilli had a few of really excellent outings but then struggled to impose himself physically. I think Akira for example had a great end to the previous season, but then wasn't as good the following one (but still a considerably improvement over the seasons prior at any level). Compare that to Kaino, where he would have been the obvious choice week in and week out for a couple of years at least. Nonu and Smith who were the only choices unless not available. There aren't that many players right now that are total shoe in for a position or jersey.

We have also had a massive number of key players injured or unavailable. I think that makes it pretty hard to build a good team structure and get consistency. A number of times, players were played because they were pretty much last man standing.

Where the AB's have done well in the past was introducing players into an experienced team, and with a few notable examples, we have seen those players step up and become test level players. I don't think that has been as obvious for the last little while. It could be poor coaching, though to be fair to Foster, with some bad has also come some pretty decent results too. We were the best Southern Hemisphere team last year by a decent margin.

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Handle9

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#2912771 11-May-2022 23:44

networkn:

We were the best Southern Hemisphere team last year by a decent margin.

Not really. It was one each against the Springboks, both 2 point games. They lost one game on the northern tour and beat the Lions. They did lose to Australia but also hadn't played international rugby for a year.

If the World Cup was played today they would be one of the favourites - they know how they want to play and the players they want to play.

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#2912866 12-May-2022 11:48

Handle9:

networkn:

We were the best Southern Hemisphere team last year by a decent margin.

Not really. It was one each against the Springboks, both 2 point games. They lost one game on the northern tour and beat the Lions. They did lose to Australia but also hadn't played international rugby for a year.

If the World Cup was played today they would be one of the favourites - they know how they want to play and the players they want to play.

SA won 8 from 13.

NZ lost 3 in their test season, but also recorded record wins against Australia, and held Argentina to 0.

I mean, I am not saying it's all roses, but it's hardly reason to panic.

I am really hoping we will do better this year. I could be wrong about Foster and he may be the worst coach ever, but I don't think the current results bear that out, it's not all bad news.

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#2914378 16-May-2022 09:34

Congrats to the Blues who seem to be playing in a manner that hasn't been seen by their fans in many years. They are probably being flattered slightly by the quality of the performances of their opposition honestly, (Reds missed 31 tackles) but it's giving them the confidence they will need for the tough end of the competition. They scored some lovely tries and seem to be having real fun, which is great to see.

Nice to see the Crusaders put in a dominant and cohesive performance, esp up front. It's been missing for a large part of the season, but it looked fairly ominous. If not for the intercept try at the end of the game, the score would have been a fair assessment of the way the game played out I think.

Chiefs and Hurricanes could feel pretty fortunate to have won their games, but it's probably the real difference between NZ and Australia now, that hard edge that gets teams across the line when they absolutely have to.

There was some really fantastic bits of individual brilliance in the weekend. A couple of lovely tries in the Chiefs Rebels game, pretty much a minute apart, but the Reece Hodge try was quite fantastic, as was Mark Telea's try in the corner for the Blues

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#2914521 16-May-2022 13:02

Cream starting to rise to the top come the business end of the season. Two weeks to go and the table has taken shape.

IMHO this is how the Quarters and semi's line up.

Blues vs Highlanders, Crusaders v Waratahs, Brumbies v Reds & Chiefs v Canes

Blues v Chiefs, Crusaders v Brumbies

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#2914537 16-May-2022 13:38

I don’t know what to think about Josh Ioane. Some awesome runs and offloads, particularly in the final quarter, but at the same time;

kicking a penalty dead from a 45 degree angle and throwing away the chance at a rolling maul try (Chiefs lineout was dominant),

throwing a floaty intercept pass on the Rebels’ 22 that turned a 7 pointer for the Chiefs into one for the Rebels, or

the pass to no-one that was scooped up by the Rebels and run in under the posts.

Still recovering from his rib injury maybe? But there were multiple occasions where he made a break only to throw the ball away in a pass that went to ground rather than taking the ball into the tackle.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#2914584 16-May-2022 15:00

Dingbatt:

I don’t know what to think about Josh Ioane. Some awesome runs and offloads, particularly in the final quarter, but at the same time;

kicking a penalty dead from a 45 degree angle and throwing away the chance at a rolling maul try (Chiefs lineout was dominant),

throwing a floaty intercept pass on the Rebels’ 22 that turned a 7 pointer for the Chiefs into one for the Rebels, or

the pass to no-one that was scooped up by the Rebels and run in under the posts.

Still recovering from his rib injury maybe? But there were multiple occasions where he made a break only to throw the ball away in a pass that went to ground rather than taking the ball into the tackle.

I agree with you, but I don't think it's the rib injury, it's just the mercurial nature of his playstyle I think (High risk, high reward). It's one of the reasons I suspect he wasn't in the AB's for very long. He has some maturing to do. MacKenzie was quite like that too, but he had a game-breaker quality I don't think Ioane has and there are probably only 1-2 places in a team where the risky play is worth it.

He shows some promise for sure, and so I think they (AB's coaches) would have given him some work ons. I suspect a change of team has slowed him down in progress plus the injury.

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#2915522 18-May-2022 12:10

I was pretty surprised to hear that Karl Tu'inukuafe has decided to leave NZ and head to France.

I am not exactly sure where he sits in the prop pecking order, but he didn't seem to have been able to consistently deliver the way he did in his breakout season that saw him propelled from not playing Rugby to playing for the AB's in a single season.

I guess it could be as simple as money talks, however, with only 1 year and 18 tests until a RWC, it feels a bit surprising unless he felt he wasn't at least a reasonable chance of selection, or perhaps he has an injury that may limit his ability to play Rugby longer-term and wants to cash up prior.... I guess we will never know.

More information :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/super-rugby-pacific-all-blacks-and-blues-prop-karl-tuinukuafe-heading-to-france/XXGZQAKPGLZLZQIEX2CI2ISJIE/

Seems it's a combination of things. Seems like injuries and shortened projected career are big factors.

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#2916488 20-May-2022 13:11

Man, JK continuously going on about RTS and rushing him into the AB's is really starting to get on my nerves. He has played only a few games, is clearly still finding his feet in rugby, and is hardly setting the rugby world alight. He may turn out to be a great option, but honestly, he's been for me, relatively underwhelming relative to the hype. He is going OK, don't get me wrong, but compared to SBW's switch from RL, it's not even on the same scale. There would be 2-3 players ahead of him in my opinion to make the step up for the AB's including Umaga-Jensen etc..

The midfield looks congested, and if we were going to have bolters, prop and lock would be where I'd be looking. We are looking really shaky at prop with Karl and Joe out of contention.

There was a lot of talk this week on the breakdown about bold selection choices and being brave, but no world cup has been won by an inexperienced team from memory. Bringing a load of new players in is probably not going to produce cohesive performances and risks the team relying on game-breakers, rather than good set-piece performance, great handling skills and strong established combinations. For me, excluding injury, we should hopefully be starting the same 32-35 guys over the next 2 seasons.

The Crusaders and AB's Lineout has been pretty average in the past 2 seasons, we have attacked and scored a lot from that in the past, our scrummaging hasn't been the platform we have experienced in the past.

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#2916501 20-May-2022 14:08

networkn:

There was a lot of talk this week on the breakdown about bold selection choices and being brave, but no world cup has been won by an inexperienced team from memory. Bringing a load of new players in is probably not going to produce cohesive performances and risks the team relying on game-breakers, rather than good set-piece performance, great handling skills and strong established combinations. For me, excluding injury, we should hopefully be starting the same 32-35 guys over the next 2 seasons.

There's a deference between 'bold selections' and having an 'inexperienced team'. World Cups have been won with bold new selections. Think Milner Skudder coming in from nowhere in 2015, think Izzy Dagg replacing centurion Mils in 2011. Even back in 1987, Michael Jones was pretty new and was newly converted to openside - and a young Fitzy kept hugely experienced (and Captain) Andy Dalton on the bench.

Then think about 1991, when we held onto experienced players too long and got smoked.

So it's not about choosing between experience or new form players. It's about getting the right mix between the two.

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#2916504 20-May-2022 14:14

Earbanean:

So it's not about choosing between experience or new form players. It's about getting the right mix between the two.

Sure, however, you are talking one player in an entire team, they seem to be talking about changing more than that, largely on form from Super Rugby it seems to me at least.

Milner-Skudders impact to the team in the finals wasn't massive, I wasn't watching RWC's much prior to 2011.

I think we would have the best (or at least fairly close) backline in the world right now based on form and potential, so I am far more worried about our forwards. I don't think we have any time to find any new breakout talent, and get them sufficiently experienced and trained up to compete in 2023.

We might have room for 1-2 more forwards to experiment with, right now we need to get them experienced, combinations working together, and keep them fit and healthy.

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#2916507 20-May-2022 14:25

networkn:

Sure, however, you are talking one player in an entire team, they seem to be talking about changing more than that, largely on form from Super Rugby it seems to me at least.

...

We might have room for 1-2 more forwards to experiment with, right now we need to get them experienced, combinations working together, and keep them fit and healthy.

Who is "they"? Certainly not Fozzy and the selectors. I wouldn't take JK too seriously. He's there for entertainment and is certainly not a selector.

However, in terms of new players, there are guys that maybe could come into the environment - if not the starting 15. e.g. Folau Fakatava, Thomas U-J, Leister F, maybe Fletcher Newell. There's still time in the 4 year cycle to give those sorts of players time off the bench and/or a start against Argentina etc. Imagine Fakatava coming off the bench, against tiring opposition, after Smith starts.

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#2916517 20-May-2022 15:00

Earbanean:

Who is "they"? Certainly not Fozzy and the selectors. I wouldn't take JK too seriously. He's there for entertainment and is certainly not a selector.

However, in terms of new players, there are guys that maybe could come into the environment - if not the starting 15. e.g. Folau Fakatava, Thomas U-J, Leister F, maybe Fletcher Newell. There's still time in the 4 year cycle to give those sorts of players time off the bench and/or a start against Argentina etc. Imagine Fakatava coming off the bench, against tiring opposition, after Smith starts.

Well, I do understand the breakdown guys are there for entertainment, and JK and I agree (surprisingly) on the fact bringing lots of guys in isn't going to lead to a good result, but there seems to be a fair amount of chatter around the place including by some in the breakdown.

It was more a discussion starter than something that needed to be dissected too much.

Agree on Fakatava, Not sure about Leister, he is a wild talent, but our backline is stacked. TUJ would be someone to consider, certainly before RTS.

I don't think there is much time left to introduce these guys. There are 18 tests before the start of the RWC.

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#2916523 20-May-2022 15:18

networkn:

Well, I do understand the breakdown guys are there for entertainment, and JK and I agree (surprisingly) on the fact bringing lots of guys in isn't going to lead to a good result, but there seems to be a fair amount of chatter around the place including by some in the breakdown.

It was more a discussion starter than something that needed to be dissected too much.

Agree on Fakatava, Not sure about Leister, he is a wild talent, but our backline is stacked. TUJ would be someone to consider, certainly before RTS.

I don't think there is much time left to introduce these guys. There are 18 tests before the start of the RWC.

Yeah, I agree about the backs. It's almost more about who to leave out, rather than who we can find. The props on the other hand...

Personally I don't buy into the 'there's only 18 tests till the world cup' panic button. That seems to be a Breakdown thing, coming from JK in particular. 18 tests is heaps. Everyone goes on about how bad last year was and how little time that leaves us till the cup. But 2009 was worse (5 losses?) and we all know what happened 2 years later in 2011. I do think fairly soon we need to bed in the important combinations - i.e. midfield, 9-10-15, loose trio. However, for a lot of the other players and particularly the reserves, there's still plenty of time.

Agree about RTS as well. I think what people miss, is that even if he gets really good at 12, he has zero union experience in any other positions. So unless he starts at 12, then he has no utility value, so can't be on the bench. Which is kind of ironic considering he was a league fullback. Although I guess SBW was in a similar position of low versatility outside 12.

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#2916528 20-May-2022 15:33

I don't think the backs are the issue. If you were to name the top 10 backs in the world and the top 10 forwards in the world I'd say we could have 2-3 backs yet not one forward. The issue we face is I cannot see anyone playing 1-8 in any of our super teams that would outplay the Northern Hemisphere's best.

The old adage rings true, Rugby is won in the forwards.. especially the current game strategy

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