Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#2917469 23-May-2022 08:59

Earbanean:

Yeah, I agree about the backs. It's almost more about who to leave out, rather than who we can find. The props on the other hand...

Personally I don't buy into the 'there's only 18 tests till the world cup' panic button. That seems to be a Breakdown thing, coming from JK in particular. 18 tests is heaps. Everyone goes on about how bad last year was and how little time that leaves us till the cup. But 2009 was worse (5 losses?) and we all know what happened 2 years later in 2011. I do think fairly soon we need to bed in the important combinations - i.e. midfield, 9-10-15, loose trio. However, for a lot of the other players and particularly the reserves, there's still plenty of time.

Agree about RTS as well. I think what people miss, is that even if he gets really good at 12, he has zero union experience in any other positions. So unless he starts at 12, then he has no utility value, so can't be on the bench. Which is kind of ironic considering he was a league fullback. Although I guess SBW was in a similar position of low versatility outside 12.

My biggest issue is experience when it comes to the last 18 tests before a RWC. We were probably a bit fortunate in 2011 to win, though Richie was the driving force and quite formidable considering. In 2015, we were in my view, the perfect team, and that was the unicorn combination of once in a generation players, one in a generation game breakers, and loads of experience and mental toughness and a habit of winning, I am unsure will ever be replicated again. Anyone brought into the team now only will be heading away with a maximum of 18 tests. That isn't a lot given the average age and experience of winning RWC sides is quite a lot more than that. We are probably learning to deal with adversity I guess, but unsure if that will really help us.

RTS had his best game in the weekend, but still wouldn't be near test level 12 in my opinion. I have nothing against the guy, but he isn't better in any regard than any of our current midfielders. The thing with SBW was that pretty much from day one he had something that hadn't been seen before. His defense was really average, but his offload and pace and strength gave him an edge that allowed him the time to develop into the role more. By the time the end of his career came along, his strength was his defense. RTS might get there, but my gut feeling is, he isn't of SBW's quality or game breaking ilk.

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#2917472 23-May-2022 09:06

The Crusaders really made a statement in the weekend. I was pleased with most of what they did. Considering they played a lot of less experienced players, they totally dominated the Drua. Fergus Burkes kicking from the Tee was quite excellent. Ennor had his best game in a while (still whoopsy prone, unfortunately). Holding the Drua tryless was excellent work.

The Blues were decidedly average and still managed to win, that is something quite different from prior seasons, where they would be excellent and lose. I do feel they have had quite an easy run toward the end of the season with the exception of the Brumbies who were their biggest challenge for a while. They will take some beating in the final if they make it that far. They are definitely getting the rub of the green from a refereeing perspective.

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#2917529 23-May-2022 11:01

networkn:

The Crusaders really made a statement in the weekend. I was pleased with most of what they did. Considering they played a lot of less experienced players, they totally dominated the Drua. Fergus Burkes kicking from the Tee was quite excellent. Ennor had his best game in a while (still whoopsy prone, unfortunately). Holding the Drua tryless was excellent work.

The Blues were decidedly average and still managed to win, that is something quite different from prior seasons, where they would be excellent and lose. I do feel they have had quite an easy run toward the end of the season with the exception of the Brumbies who were their biggest challenge for a while. They will take some beating in the final if they make it that far. They are definitely getting the rub of the green from a refereeing perspective.

Blues have a much harder run through the finals though. Crusaders pretty much guranteed a home quarter and semi. Due to the nature of the top 8 finishing 2nd makes for a much easier run through. The finals are pretty much locked and loaded now.

Quarter Finals (home team 1st) Blues v Highlanders, Crusaders v Reds/Tahs, Brumbies vs Tahs/Reds, Chiefs v Hurricanes

My thoughts on Semi Finals (home team 1st) Blues v Chiefs/Hurricanes, Crusaders v Brumbies.

The two semi's should be absolute test match intensity, quite look forward to the Chiefs v Canes quarter final as well.

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#2917538 23-May-2022 11:13

I dunno, Highlanders don't look like that much of a threat (Tahs beat them at home pretty comfortably in the weekend) and the Crusaders have already lost to the tahs this year (though I consider that unlikely twice in a season, esp when their form is starting to come together in the last couple of weeks.

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#2917539 23-May-2022 11:22

Could just skip a couple of weeks and do the Blues/Crusaders final at Eden Park. /s

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#2917542 23-May-2022 11:41

networkn:

I dunno, Highlanders don't look like that much of a threat (Tahs beat them at home pretty comfortably in the weekend) and the Crusaders have already lost to the tahs this year (though I consider that unlikely twice in a season, esp when their form is starting to come together in the last couple of weeks.

Highlanders had a red card which pretty much finished the game for them. Blues v Highlanders agreed should be one way traffic but it will be a much more physical game than against an aussie team. Blues v Chiefs would be an awesome semi final at Eden park.

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#2917593 23-May-2022 12:01

Gilberts red card was awful. After such a stellar outing the week before such a shame he did that. Totally red and I expect him to be punished quite hard for it too and deservedly so.

The concern after a few years of 'focus' on head safety for players, is that we still seem to be seeing similar levels of red and yellow for foul play. Hooper has been done dirty a few times recently, I really dislike it. He only just returned from concussion protocols.

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#2917627 23-May-2022 13:24

networkn:

Gilberts red card was awful. After such a stellar outing the week before such a shame he did that. Totally red and I expect him to be punished quite hard for it too and deservedly so.

The concern after a few years of 'focus' on head safety for players, is that we still seem to be seeing similar levels of red and yellow for foul play. Hooper has been done dirty a few times recently, I really dislike it. He only just returned from concussion protocols.

It was terrible and he should miss the rest of the season for it.

Interesting I was reading yesterday that world rugby are keeping the 50:22 and goal line drop out rules but turned down the 20 min red card.

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#2917629 23-May-2022 13:38

JPNZ:

It was terrible and he should miss the rest of the season for it.

Interesting I was reading yesterday that world rugby are keeping the 50:22 and goal line drop out rules but turned down the 20 min red card.

I don't really feel that the red card rules are working at the moment. I'd be interested to know why they decided against the 20 minute red card rule. If it's because they don't feel the 20 minute rule punishes the team enough, then that is potentially a decent reason to do away with it, but I am unsure if that is going to magically 'fix' players doing what Gilbert did and pretty much guarantees that an accidental red card incident decides the outcome of a match.

It's probably not reasonable to take the approach that intentional/reckless is match long loss of player and accidental is 20 minutes. Gibert would be the first and Clarke's red from a few weeks ago would possibly fall under the second. The reason I don't consider it reasonable, is the referee already has an almost impossible job executing the current framework. Adding something which is likely going to be subjective to the list of criteria to consider, esp when you might have 30k fans screaming at you and captains in your ear etc.. I guess they could add a blue card which has a 20 minute consequence but still back to the interpretation...

JPNZ

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#2917631 23-May-2022 13:48

networkn:

JPNZ:

It was terrible and he should miss the rest of the season for it.

Interesting I was reading yesterday that world rugby are keeping the 50:22 and goal line drop out rules but turned down the 20 min red card.

I don't really feel that the red card rules are working at the moment. I'd be interested to know why they decided against the 20 minute red card rule. If it's because they don't feel the 20 minute rule punishes the team enough, then that is potentially a decent reason to do away with it, but I am unsure if that is going to magically 'fix' players doing what Gilbert did and pretty much guarantees that an accidental red card incident decides the outcome of a match.

This is what I read on it..

"The law trial has been running for the past two years in the southern hemisphere and is popular; seen as a way to not ruin a game’s spectacle and, in tandem with a strong judiciary, ample punishment. But in the northern hemisphere, the 20-minute red card has been slammed as dangerous and, given red-carded teams are actually winning more than 60 per cent of Super Rugby games, not enough of a punishment to drive behavioural and coaching change.

The Law Review Group, which Dave Rennie sits on, recommended the 20-minute red card go to a full global trial but a spokesperson confirmed the World Rugby council had rejected it, citing player welfare concerns. Will that mean a return to full red cards in Super Rugby and TRC at the end of the current trial in October?

We hear SANZAAR may apply to keep the trial going next season, arguing it could help provide more data and a better case for implementation. But long-term, there can’t be different laws forever - and attitudes appear pretty fixed in the north."

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#2917632 23-May-2022 13:59

I can certainly understand their perspective on it. I think if you are going to have a full red again then potentially they need to have additional steps to consider for the referees where there are set criteria for whether it's a red card, yellow or for review later maybe. I am unsure how you get this right, but it doesn't seem possible to satisfy all desired outcomes from the current framework. I agree player safety is of high import, but I feel that where you make accidental or somewhat unavoidable head contact, having a player sent from the field is going to pretty tough going.

I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that financial penalties for the players may be the next thing needing to be tried.

I'd probably do this.

Yellow is yellow, reviewed post game, and if it's red, then it's accidental or reckless/intentional. Reckless or intentional then it's x weeks from the field, mandatory contact training and $x,xxx multiplied by the number of weeks of your suspension.

Red is Red, 20 minutes for the team to be without the player and when it's reviewed post match, if it's reckless or intentional then it's the same as red above.

Biting, Stomping, Eye Gouging etc, red for full match and see above, but skips the 'first time offense', player showed remorse, pleaded guilty early, you get the full punishment for those crimes.

@handle9 interested on your take of where you think World Rugby should be heading in regards player safety given it doesn't appear what has happened to date has had a significant positive impact.

I think everyone understands you cannot mitigate all risk in a full-contact sport, but for example, Gilberts act in the weekend was entirely choice, and intent and dangerous.

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#2918008 24-May-2022 15:10

JPNZ:

I don't think the backs are the issue. If you were to name the top 10 backs in the world and the top 10 forwards in the world I'd say we could have 2-3 backs yet not one forward. The issue we face is I cannot see anyone playing 1-8 in any of our super teams that would outplay the Northern Hemisphere's best.

The old adage rings true, Rugby is won in the forwards.. especially the current game strategy

Whitelock Rettalick and Moody playing their best are up there I think.

I agree though, that we haven't seen the best of them for a bit, though I wouldn't write off any of those guys to be honest.

Our continuing struggles at set-piece worries me.

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#2918043 24-May-2022 16:19

networkn:

Whitelock Rettalick and Moody playing their best are up there I think.

I agree though, that we haven't seen the best of them for a bit, though I wouldn't write off any of those guys to be honest.

Our continuing struggles at set-piece worries me.

Yeah, right now none of those three would be top 10 in the world in their position. Plus they are all old in rugby terms (33, 30 and 33 respectively)

I am concerned we don't have any young forwards that are showing a class set of skills, Savea, Papaili and Blackadder probably best of the younger guys IMO

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#2918047 24-May-2022 16:33

JPNZ:

Yeah, right now none of those three would be top 10 in the world in their position. Plus they are all old in rugby terms (33, 30 and 33 respectively)

I am concerned we don't have any young forwards that are showing a class set of skills, Savea, Papaili and Blackadder probably best of the younger guys IMO

Really? You don't think Whitelock is in the top 10 test locks in the world?

I feel bad for forgetting Savea, I think he certainly would be in the top 10 in his position.

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#2918052 24-May-2022 16:58

networkn:

Really? You don't think Whitelock is in the top 10 test locks in the world?

I feel bad for forgetting Savea, I think he certainly would be in the top 10 in his position.

Yeah sorry put position in there accidentally. I was meaning top 10 forwards and backs. I don't think NZ would have any players make a Top 10 best forwards in the world currently. Ardie would be the closest.

I think the Irish are going to show us up in a game or two the same way England did in the world cup.

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