Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#2938455 5-Jul-2022 11:28

artbloke:

Yeah, need to really see if a player can handle the pressure situations in their positions at international level - Super Rugby can be a decent gauge for that though... reckon when building depth & experience it has to be with balance, can feed one or two players into a test, whether one is starting & the other on the bench, what we don't want is starting too many newbies in a test, especially against the better team, we'd also lose cohesion.

I always want us to try & win every test... yeah, I meant Whitelock should only come on if the lock that replaced is going really poorly, it's up to a new player to make the most of their opportunities, if they perform badly they can only blame themselves.

I disagree that Super Rugby is a reasonable gauge for that. There is a long history of players who have been totally brilliant at Super Rugby and not make the transition to International Level. Likewise, many players who really lift for the big games. Nonu had so many seasons where on SR form, wouldn't have made the AB's but the Black Jersey was his superman cape.

I am not sure where I see Mo'unga in International Rugby. He has had plenty of moments of brilliance, esp behind a pack going forward. I am not sure if it's the way the AB's play him where he mostly distributes that means he isn't being given the freedom to express himself, and we haven't seen him take a game that we were going backwards in, and change it up, in test rugby, the way Dan Carter (and BB to a lesser degree) could for example. He has done it a number of times for the Crusaders.

In short, there is probably a 20+% intensity and speed increase between SR and a test match.

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networkn

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#2938457 5-Jul-2022 11:34

Apparently, 17% of the match between Ireland and NZ was scrums. That seems high. No easy answer, as much as I am not a fan of scrums, I would never support their removal.

I guess it's the nature of the game that sometimes you will lose time to scrums, other times to serious injuries etc.

artbloke

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#2938458 5-Jul-2022 11:38

networkn:

trig42:

Looks like you'll get your wish: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300629666/all-blacks-lock-sam-whitelock-out-of-second-test-against-ireland-with-delayed-onset-concussion

I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Having him removed isn't the same as removing him. I want the Coaches to make that choice, to take the chances. At the end of the day, the choice has been made for them, and perhaps that will create the same opportunity, but for me it's about mindset.

Being called up due to injury, vs being called up because your coaches want to see if you can make the step up, even when there are others in the team likely able to do the job, is a different type of mental statement/situation for a player.

Really unfortunate for Whitelock, can't take any chances with head knocks... we always tend to have someone to come in & do the job well.

trig42

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#2938461 5-Jul-2022 11:44

They've asked NZR to allow them to bring in Tuipuloto (who is on Sabbatical). Tupou Vaa'i has Covid.

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#2938465 5-Jul-2022 11:54

trig42:

They've asked NZR to allow them to bring in Tuipuloto (who is on Sabbatical). Tupou Vaa'i has Covid.

What about Josh Lord?

Edit: I'm guessing he would play Barrett on the bench and Tuipolutu would be squad cover. Though that depends on having cover at 6.

artbloke

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#2938467 5-Jul-2022 12:00

networkn:

artbloke:

Yeah, need to really see if a player can handle the pressure situations in their positions at international level - Super Rugby can be a decent gauge for that though... reckon when building depth & experience it has to be with balance, can feed one or two players into a test, whether one is starting & the other on the bench, what we don't want is starting too many newbies in a test, especially against the better team, we'd also lose cohesion.

I always want us to try & win every test... yeah, I meant Whitelock should only come on if the lock that replaced is going really poorly, it's up to a new player to make the most of their opportunities, if they perform badly they can only blame themselves.

I disagree that Super Rugby is a reasonable gauge for that. There is a long history of players who have been totally brilliant at Super Rugby and not make the transition to International Level. Likewise, many players who really lift for the big games. Nonu had so many seasons where on SR form, wouldn't have made the AB's but the Black Jersey was his superman cape.

I am not sure where I see Mo'unga in International Rugby. He has had plenty of moments of brilliance, esp behind a pack going forward. I am not sure if it's the way the AB's play him where he mostly distributes that means he isn't being given the freedom to express himself, and we haven't seen him take a game that we were going backwards in, and change it up, in test rugby, the way Dan Carter (and BB to a lesser degree) could for example. He has done it a number of times for the Crusaders.

In short, there is probably a 20+% intensity and speed increase between SR and a test match.

Didn't say Super Rugby is a great gauge for international rugby, but it's the best we have for the next level up.

For the Crusaders Mo'unga is a fast exciting flair runner with excellent skill sets, also looks to kick into space - a coach has to let a player play his natural game as long as it's done smartly... but under this AB coaching staff we're are not seeing much of his flair & his general kicking is just as aimless as BB, that's really saying something.

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#2938470 5-Jul-2022 12:04

trig42:

They've asked NZR to allow them to bring in Tuipuloto (who is on Sabbatical). Tupou Vaa'i has Covid.

We don't need Tuipuloto when we obviously have better locks them him to bring in.

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#2938473 5-Jul-2022 12:06

artbloke:

For the Crusaders Mo'unga is a fast exciting flair runner with excellent skill sets, also looks to kick into space - a coach has to let a player play his natural game as long as it's done smartly... but under this AB coaching staff we're are not seeing much of his flair & his general kicking is just as aimless as BB, that's really saying something.

I'd find it somewhat unlikely that Foster and Co would be saying "kick aimlessly" etc. I *could* see them saying 'we want you to distribute, rather than attack the line every chance you get' and there are some valid reasons for that, if there are other parts of the game they are concerned about, like ability to get to him to clean out anyone trying to snatch the ball from him in contact, etc, however, it's definitely not his natural game and means he ends up hesitating or second-guessing himself, which is bound to impact confidence.

Also, not so much this year, but traditionally he has always been behind either the strongest or the top 3 packs in the SR competition and this gives him opportunities he hasn't had at test level since our AB's pack has not been consistently on the front foot.

I'd love to see him have a license to do his thing, but it's about what's best for our game and team overall which is more important.

If BB and RM went down with Covid, it would be a scary thing, not sure who else we would have to stand up in the 10.

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#2938478 5-Jul-2022 12:09

Josh Lord is out for the season with an injury so wasn't considered. I would've hoped they'd bring in someone new as Tuipuloto has not impressed in the AB's jersey.

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#2938482 5-Jul-2022 12:15

maoriboy:

Josh Lord is out for the season with an injury so wasn't considered. I would've hoped they'd bring in someone new as Tuipuloto has not impressed in the AB's jersey.

Forgot about that.

Ireland have only 4 of their front rowers from an original 9 that were selected and travelled.

I think Tuipulotu has been inconsistent, but when he is on, he is excellent. He has been playing in Japan and I imagine it would be a hell of a step up.

Pari Pari Parkinson perhaps?

Alternatively, Grace to cover 6 if Akira isn't fit, and Barrett back to lock?

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#2938497 5-Jul-2022 12:39

networkn:

artbloke:

For the Crusaders Mo'unga is a fast exciting flair runner with excellent skill sets, also looks to kick into space - a coach has to let a player play his natural game as long as it's done smartly... but under this AB coaching staff we're are not seeing much of his flair & his general kicking is just as aimless as BB, that's really saying something.

I'd find it somewhat unlikely that Foster and Co would be saying "kick aimlessly" etc. I *could* see them saying 'we want you to distribute, rather than attack the line every chance you get' and there are some valid reasons for that, if there are other parts of the game they are concerned about, like ability to get to him to clean out anyone trying to snatch the ball from him in contact, etc, however, it's definitely not his natural game and means he ends up hesitating or second-guessing himself, which is bound to impact confidence.

Also, not so much this year, but traditionally he has always been behind either the strongest or the top 3 packs in the SR competition and this gives him opportunities he hasn't had at test level since our AB's pack has not been consistently on the front foot.

I'd love to see him have a license to do his thing, but it's about what's best for our game and team overall which is more important.

If BB and RM went down with Covid, it would be a scary thing, not sure who else we would have to stand up in the 10.

This coaching staff tried to counter the rushing defence last year with box kicks, would call that aimless kicking - the ball only travels about 30 metres downfield, also the other side are running towards the ball, so well over 50% of the time they going to win it in the air... that just low percentage stuff.

When all 10's get front foot ball though they're going to go better, giving them more time & space operate... still have to take good options & execute accurately though.

If those two 10's were out for whatever reason I'd bring in Josh Ioane who's a good running 10 like the other two, their running games keep the defence in two minds... there's also Gatland, but he's more of a solid type of player.

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#2938498 5-Jul-2022 12:40

Ok, well NZR signed off Patrick joining the AB's along with Josh Dickson, and Frizell as well.

Whitelock gone for the series.

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#2938500 5-Jul-2022 12:45

artbloke:

This coaching staff tried to counter the rushing defence last year with box kicks, would call that aimless kicking - the ball only travels about 30 metres downfield, also the other side are running towards the ball, so well over 50% of the time they going to win it in the air... that just low percentage stuff.

When all 10's get front foot ball though they're going to go better, giving them more time & space operate... still have to take good options & execute accurately though.

If those two 10's were out for whatever reason I'd bring in Josh Ioane who's a good running 10 like the other two, their running games keep the defence in two minds... there's also Gatland, but he's more of a solid type of player.

Considering many teams last year used the box kick (some almost exclusively looking at you SA) , and it was praised as a good effective technique by many pundits, esp of players like Faf de Clerk and DuPoint. It certainly wasn't characterised as aimless when done by them.

Perhaps we weren't executing it well enough (too deep) or were failing to regain possession well enough.

Variance is a key component of keeping you opponents from using the same defensive patterns all the time.

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#2938521 5-Jul-2022 14:08

When used well it is great to have in the arsenal, when done poorly it just gives away possession. Christie was a prime example of it going very badly in the Super final. Equally when he came on his first couple were much the same, pointless and pressure inducing (for us)

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#2938531 5-Jul-2022 14:36

itxtme:

When used well it is great to have in the arsenal, when done poorly it just gives away possession. Christie was a prime example of it going very badly in the Super final. Equally when he came on his first couple were much the same, pointless and pressure inducing (for us)

Totally agree. I guess like anything in any sport, execution and timing is critical. Christie has been quite mixed in my opinion. I was a little surprised by his inclusion compared to the likes of Fakatava who has a clear point of differentiation.

At Super Rugby level I thought Hall was better all season than Christie.

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