Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#2943517 18-Jul-2022 16:25

networkn:
Handle9:

It's been apparent for some time we aren't the best team in the world. The lack of any recognition of this by NZR has caused the vitriol.

People have hated on Foster before he even took charge. When it was announced he was a candidate. Not just a bit of dislike, or doubt he was the right guy for the job, total absolute vitriol.

We beat Argentina and Australia by record margins, does he get any credit at all? Nope, should have been by more, should have selected different players, why did that player drop the ball, all Fosters fault.

You'd think he had been murdering babies :) We lost some test matches to excellent sides who played well. (and yes, I strongly dislike us losing too).

Do you think he should be fired/resign? Who replaces him?

NZR setup Foster to fail. He got appointed in a “jobs for the boys” process, which stunk. It’s hardly surprising that’s created doubt in his ability and resentment.

It was an opportunity for change but instead the decision of more of the same was made.

Foster hasn’t changed anything meaningful since being appointed. We’re doing the same things and getting progressively worse results as other teams have progressed.

It’s really too late now to change much for the World Cup. It’s an opportunity to build toward 2027.

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zaptor

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#2943524 18-Jul-2022 17:07

networkn:

It's actually a brilliant episode, and even JK has a number of pretty great things to say.

Jeff Wilson saying he would be really disappointed if he (Foster) was "judged purely on results"... 🤣

"Results" is the whole reason behind the All Blacks brand.
It's the reason one equates All Blacks with excellence (or used to be).

To me it sounded like Wilson and Kirwan were just making excuses, as where Marshall was trying to be more honest about the situation.

Kirwan admitted to being a rubbish coach, and then goes on to say he doesn't know why things didn't work out with the Blues under his tenure - really JK?
Pretty sure if everyone was on truth serum Isa would've told you some unpleasant home truths.

IMHO, Wilson and Kirwan are a reflection of that "old-boys" arrogance which annoys people so much.

artbloke

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#2943534 18-Jul-2022 17:52

Handle9:

artbloke:

On our own ball we should always have good numbers to clean, it's the only way to consistently recycle as quick as possible, which stops them from slowing our ball down, getting turn overs, also us getting pinged through lack of numbers.

It's not about numbers, it's about accuracy and timing. If you get 2 players to the breakdown with correct technique and timing you win your own ball. If you get 4 players there but they get there late you'll lose the possession anyway - the jackaller will have the turnover.

If you commit a lot of numbers to the break down and you win the ball then the opposition will commit none and let you have it. Then they have 13 on their feet against 10 in your team and you are screwed.

Naturally you have to get your accuracy & timing right first, if your numbers arrive too late it's pointless.

Reckon on our ball we need decent numbers cleaning each time to protect the ball carrier so we can keep securing the ball through the phases... it's when the other side have possession we need to be more careful on how many numbers we commit to the breakdown.

Handle9

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#2943540 18-Jul-2022 18:15

artbloke:

Handle9:

It's not about numbers, it's about accuracy and timing. If you get 2 players to the breakdown with correct technique and timing you win your own ball. If you get 4 players there but they get there late you'll lose the possession anyway - the jackaller will have the turnover.

If you commit a lot of numbers to the break down and you win the ball then the opposition will commit none and let you have it. Then they have 13 on their feet against 10 in your team and you are screwed.

Naturally you have to get your accuracy & timing right first, if your numbers arrive too late it's pointless.

Reckon on our ball we need decent numbers cleaning each time to protect the ball carrier so we can keep securing the ball through the phases... it's when the other side have possession we need to be more careful on how many numbers we commit to the breakdown.

What purpose do the extra players serve? All you are doing is removing players from the line and the ability to recycle your ball on the next phase.

The reason every team in the world plays this way is it works. Issues on our ball are around technique not numbers.

networkn

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#2943782 19-Jul-2022 12:35

Andrew Porter cited for his tackle on Brodie Rettalick.

Rettalick is out for 8 weeks, I am expecting Porter to get 4+ weeks.

He was clearly rising in the half second before impact. Barnes and the TMO got this horribly wrong. Aki almost certainly should have been yellow at least as well. Scott Barrett got away with one earlier in the series, so I guess there is some justice there.

If that card had been given on field, and the boys had executed their skills, it's not hard to see how the result may have been different. (though only winning because of having a player advantage feels a little hollow).

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#2943786 19-Jul-2022 12:51

The easiest and quickest things for the AB's to fix in the time between now and the SA tour, is to improve accuracy at the breakdown, fix up our set piece and get the players gelling better together. Those three things alone should give us a much better chance.

Harder would be to come up with a new style of play and get all the players up to speed with it and have it be cohesive prior to then. I am not sure, but my gut feeling is that Foster and his team lack some of the skills that Robertson and say Schmidt, and Farrell have in developing a different strategy against other teams.

It's a bit difficult to say right now, but I am not sure if the coaches are developing plans and the players either can't or aren't executing it well enough or at all, or there isn't really a plan.

networkn

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#2943791 19-Jul-2022 13:10

zaptor:

Jeff Wilson saying he would be really disappointed if he (Foster) was "judged purely on results"... 🤣

"Results" is the whole reason behind the All Blacks brand.
It's the reason one equates All Blacks with excellence (or used to be).

To me it sounded like Wilson and Kirwan were just making excuses, as where Marshall was trying to be more honest about the situation.

Kirwan admitted to being a rubbish coach, and then goes on to say he doesn't know why things didn't work out with the Blues under his tenure - really JK?
Pretty sure if everyone was on truth serum Isa would've told you some unpleasant home truths.

IMHO, Wilson and Kirwan are a reflection of that "old-boys" arrogance which annoys people so much.

I didn't get that from what they said. I thought it was a well considered argument that resisted the knee jerk reaction that most NZ fans seem to be having right now.

I think they were pretty clear that if Foster looks in the mirror and is honest and believes he can't do the job, he should step aside, otherwise, he needs to honestly assess his team and assistants and perhaps make changes there. Does that not seem a reasonable approach?

I think some of the skills execution issues should pretty much resolve themselves and if we cut down our errors by 50% at least and improved our kicking, we would have been more competitive.

Whether or not that is enough, is probably fairly debatable, but it hardly seems worth implementing a game plan when you can't get the basics like breakdown accuracy, set piece and basic skills execution right.

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#2943807 19-Jul-2022 13:31

You have to remember that NZR owns part of SKY so shows like the breakdown are never going to be overly critical of Foster or specifically the NZR in general. Relying on "the breakdown" for any sort of useful input is just pandering to the lowest common denominator (part of the reason I don't watch it). JK, Steven Bates are terrible and provide nothing but comedy value...

The 1014 rugby show is one of the best in NZ for real tactics and input

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#2943808 19-Jul-2022 13:34

JPNZ:

You have to remember that NZR owns part of SKY so shows like the breakdown are never going to be overly critical of Foster or specifically the NZR in general. Relying on "the breakdown" for any sort of useful input is just pandering to the lowest common denominator (part of the reason I don't watch it).

I think it's improved out of sight from even a year ago. There is still some rubbish in there, but it's become more analytical and balanced as time has gone on.

Handle9

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#2943835 19-Jul-2022 15:03

networkn:
Andrew Porter cited for his tackle on Brodie Rettalick.

Rettalick is out for 8 weeks, I am expecting Porter to get 4+ weeks.

He was clearly rising in the half second before impact. Barnes and the TMO got this horribly wrong. Aki almost certainly should have been yellow at least as well. Scott Barrett got away with one earlier in the series, so I guess there is some justice there.

If that card had been given on field, and the boys had executed their skills, it's not hard to see how the result may have been different. (though only winning because of having a player advantage feels a little hollow).

Why would Porter get 4+ weeks? Mid range entry point is 6 weeks and the standard discount is 50%.

artbloke

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#2943879 19-Jul-2022 17:17

In Hansen's last year or so as AB coach we were on the downward slide - he was constantly changing too many players in the starting 15 leading up to the RWC, so was hardly surprising in that tournament we lacked cohesion & were disjointed... so didn't make any logic at all when the NZRU decided to reappoint most of Hansen's coaching staff.

artbloke

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#2943883 19-Jul-2022 17:24

Handle9 - it's clearly a combo of technique & having 3 or 4 to clean on your own ball... no good us having a couple to clean if they have 3 or 4 there, they're just going to blow us off the ball.

networkn

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#2943884 19-Jul-2022 17:26

artbloke:
Handle9 - it's clearly a combo of technique & having 3 or 4 to clean on your own ball... no good us having a couple to clean if they have 3 or 4 there, they're just going to blow us off the ball.

How often are you seeing Ireland or France commit 3 or 4 players to the breakdown in defense or attack?

Handle9

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#2943886 19-Jul-2022 17:29

artbloke:

Handle9 - it's clearly a combo of technique & having 3 or 4 to clean on your own ball... no good us having a couple to clean if they have 3 or 4 there, they're just going to blow us off the ball.

Where are the opposition getting a turnover from having 3-4 players there? Turnovers are coming from 1-2 players arriving at the breakdown before the cleaners.

No one will commit 3-4 players to a defensive ruck in 2022 unless it's a counter ruck opportunity. It kills your defence to have 4 guys caught in a ruck, there will be big holes elsewhere.

Handle9

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#2943902 19-Jul-2022 17:51

networkn:
artbloke:

Handle9 - it's clearly a combo of technique & having 3 or 4 to clean on your own ball... no good us having a couple to clean if they have 3 or 4 there, they're just going to blow us off the ball.

How often are you seeing Ireland or France commit 3 or 4 players to the breakdown in defense or attack?

They will send numbers at an isolated carrier. France are more aggressive at the ruck than Ireland but neither side commit numbers, they do it with one or two forwards.

The issue with the NZ breakdown is a combination of poor technique and a crappy attacking system that gets players isolated regularly.

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