Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#3153683 30-Oct-2023 12:55

networkn:

Handsomedan:

Overall, despite the fact that the AB's lost, I have to say as a casual rugby viewer, the rules and the constant stopping and starting, the changes to scrums, the interference by TMO etc have made rugby a boring watch for me and many like me.

It's a really hard watch now and has little flow and very little to attract the casual fan.

If the global powers that be do not address this, I fear for the future of the game. It's become stale, slow and boring.

World cup finals games are often like this, defensive low scoring events. Same is true in many sports.

2015 AB's was an anomaly, we scored lots of tries and it was running rugby.

I don't think the Rugby Championship was like that, nor Super Rugby. NZ wants to play Rugby, SA wants to win and won't care one Iota how they do it :)

This feeling isn't confined to a RWC final. It's not even the tournament. It's international rugby as a whole - it's becoming really really hard to watch.

I've been to a few live games and there's long periods where not a lot happens - at least on telly, that's a time you can pick up your phone and browse or go make a cuppa.

I just don't think that the "player welfare" changes have made for a good spectacle at all.

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networkn

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#3153694 30-Oct-2023 13:25

Handsomedan:

This feeling isn't confined to a RWC final. It's not even the tournament. It's international rugby as a whole - it's becoming really really hard to watch.

I've been to a few live games and there's long periods where not a lot happens - at least on telly, that's a time you can pick up your phone and browse or go make a cuppa.

I just don't think that the "player welfare" changes have made for a good spectacle at all.

I watched every match this RWC, and I watch a lot of Rugby in general. Other than injury or TMO reviews for head contact, there aren't THAT many delays, and if anything, the time with ball in hand, stats will show, is comfortably ahead of where it was 8 years ago.

There was a hell of a lot of running Rugby this tournament, especially in the pool stages. SA and England played very conservative Rugby, that's the style they can play. SA because they have decided size is more important than anything else and slowing down the game is better for their forwards, and England largely played the way they did as it was the only way they could win, starting with the game against Argentina where they played with a guy down the whole match and knew they wouldn't be able to compete in a running game match given their form prior to the competition, and when they won that, they decided that was a style they could all play and agree on, and it got them to a Semi.

Your experience clearly doesn't match my own, but I will admit to being more invested than your average viewer. I don't mind the odd grudge match, but I don't feel in general rugby is heading that way.

Wombat1

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#3153705 30-Oct-2023 13:55

GV27:

There's also the question of whether Smith's try should have been disallowed given the TMO intervened about a knock-on four phases back - which is clearly not allowed under the TMO guidelines.

I saw that knock on when watching, in fact most of us watching saw it. I was not surprised when that try was taken off the board.

TeaLeaf

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#3153706 30-Oct-2023 14:03

networkn: the time with ball in hand, stats will show, is comfortably ahead of where it was 8 years ago.

was that stat ball in hand ie rucking, maul, lineout, scrum inclusive? or was it a stat based on running ball in hand? genuinely interested.

I wouldnt think the latter which for some is dead set boring. Personally where I playd in Union (7, but centre/wing in league) I have some interest in forwards play, more so the in between loose forward play however.

No doubt there is still some running rugby around, France, Ireland, NZ etc, but if teams start playing zero backs on the bench and hooker sized scrum halfs, all due to the way South af are being hailed the best team in WC history and the flappn crazy TMO, Rugby will be the loser, with Fans attracted to other sports.

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#3153723 30-Oct-2023 14:58

Styris gets it right in the video, although I think she was only being diplomatic saying SaF deserved to win. and its true Union just lost millions of fans and potential fans, mostly to Legue, come on over, come on over ;-p

Saf and this TMO promoted "Negative Rugby", and in the biggest game of the sport, the RWC final. Thats the point they are making (even if they didnt talk about the incorrect penalty debacle)

Something HAS to change to get Rugby back to where it was, a beautiful game where even the line outs, rucks, mauls etc were interesting as they were part of a positive strategy to get close enough to strike with Running Rugby, but more so doing what our captain courageously chose instead of being negative with 3 points, he chose to go for the 5.

Perhaps even turning Penalty kicks etc to 2 points to encourage less box kicking hit and hope negative footy. Havnt thought that one through, just thinking back and what could encourage more positive play.

Rugby World Cup: AM host Nicky Styris unleashes on TMO interference in All Blacks final defeat | Newshub

and Scotty gets it right about getting flow into the game, still think Barnes made two many errors regardless, Scotty is always "that guy" with his thoughts.

World Rugby’s silence in wake of final 'cowardly' – Scotty Stevenson | TVNZ Breakfast - YouTube

GV27

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#3153727 30-Oct-2023 15:15

Wombat1:

I saw that knock on when watching, in fact most of us watching saw it. I was not surprised when that try was taken off the board.

I also heard Wayne Barnes saying it was 'fine'. So there's a real question about whether it meets the 'clear and obvious' infringement.

Regardless, it was too many phase back to check anyway according to the actual rules around the TMO. So the knock-on itself at that point doesn't actually matter.

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#3153756 30-Oct-2023 16:19

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby-world-cup-2023/300998270/rugby-world-cup-dont-blame-sam-cane-for-all-blacks-loss-says-rieko-ioane

Classy of Reiko to try and (rightly) highlight that Sam Cane wasn't the sole reason for the loss to SA.

TeaLeaf

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#3153786 30-Oct-2023 19:18

networkn:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby-world-cup-2023/300998270/rugby-world-cup-dont-blame-sam-cane-for-all-blacks-loss-says-rieko-ioane

Classy of Reiko to try and (rightly) highlight that Sam Cane wasn't the sole reason for the loss to SA.

yep a number rallying behind him, good karma. just like mccaw losing his first WC for us ;-p (he wouldnt get away with the tmo lol, would be pinged every 5 mins).

I dont blame Cane at all. Was a good tackle for me as far as outside the accidental head clash. Is a human contact sport, you know that when you enter. No way it was malicious or intent. Yellow for me was over the top. But Im not of this era. However I do not believe the odd knock to the nogan can be avoided and certainly not controlled by an algorithm/rule book with sub sub sub sections.

Live with the fact accidents happen but clear wreckless or worse deliberate behaviour should be dealt with.

In league, head contact the player often will stay down for a penalty or the captain has to challenge if the ref misses a swinging arm or deliberate head contact, accidental head clashes are accepted as part of playing, that is a better basis for free flowing Union imo. players accept accidental head clashes are part of the game, they do get pulled off by the match Dr for HIa though if its caused concussion.

Im all for player protection but Im also a realist about how head clashes occur and vary rarely they are deliberate or something the player can avoid, unless they outlaw ball n all tackles and all standing tackles, which you may as well move to waste and below tackles only. Which would be more fans over to the other code. remove scrums from the sport as head clashes are common, ban rucks as player can accidently cop a stray knee or hip to the head etc. it is a slippery slippery slope/

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#3153793 30-Oct-2023 20:01

TeaLeaf:

No doubt there is still some running rugby around, France, Ireland, NZ etc, but if teams start playing zero backs on the bench and hooker sized scrum halfs, all due to the way South af are being hailed the best team in WC history and the flappn crazy TMO, Rugby will be the loser, with Fans attracted to other sports.

https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/has-ball-in-play-time-reached-its-optimal-level/

People don't clearly remember the way Rugby often was where 80 minutes regularly resulted in 3-0 scorelines, or 6-9 score lines. It's rare to see that these days. If anything, it's the opposite, where many matches can have both teams score 30+ points.

It's not every match obviously, but no question in my mind, rugby is better to watch on the whole, now, than it was.

Recent changes to the game, mean lineouts are formed so much faster, and there are limits to how long the ball can sit in the ruck before the halfback must clear it, kicks are timed, and players rolling away happens in almost every ruck.

You are going to come across games that are a hard watch, true in every sport. I actually enjoyed England/Argentina for the excellent way that England adapted to their situation and found a way to win. England SA was a grudge fest with tactical kicking etc was a feature. Not everyone will enjoy those, I agree, and I hope this isn't SA or England for the next 10 years, but it has it's place and NZ should have that kind of game in their arsenal. If NZ had taken one more penalty kick, there may have been a different outcome. I applauded their kicking for the corner, and felt confident with 15 minutes to play, we would win despite the odds against us.

Handle9

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#3153798 30-Oct-2023 20:40

Batman:

you have the ref apologizing for a wrong penalty but won't reverse it

He didn't apologize for a wrong penalty, he said “Sorry, mate, I didn’t see the replay. I thought you stayed on him. I didn’t see you come off enough.”

There's nothing there that says he apologized for the decision, he apologized for not seeing the replay.

There's a lot of revisionist history going on.

AxisOfBeagles

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#3153803 30-Oct-2023 20:54

Handle9:

Batman:

you have the ref apologizing for a wrong penalty but won't reverse it

He didn't apologize for a wrong penalty, he said “Sorry, mate, I didn’t see the replay. I thought you stayed on him. I didn’t see you come off enough.”

There's nothing there that says he apologized for the decision, he apologized for not seeing the replay.

There's a lot of revisionist history going on.

agreed. He still got it wrong.

GV27

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#3153847 31-Oct-2023 06:07

Handle9:

He didn't apologize for a wrong penalty, he said “Sorry, mate, I didn’t see the replay. I thought you stayed on him. I didn’t see you come off enough.”

There's nothing there that says he apologized for the decision, he apologized for not seeing the replay.

There's a lot of revisionist history going on.

That's not really relevant - you don't have to come off someone 'enough', you just have to make sure you actually release them before you play at the ball.

You don't have to make a big song and dance about it, you just have to do it.

Whether you do that to the extent that makes Wayne Barnes happy is irrelevant. If you've released them, you've released them.

GV27

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#3153856 31-Oct-2023 08:00

I'm also a little bit surprised to see Scott Barrett being mentioned as a captain candidate. I have extreme reservations about that. I hope we're not bracing for another Mitchell-esque Crusaders-dominated squad when other regions in NZ are actually playing pretty incredible rugby.

The Blues played some of the best rugby ever seen in 2003 yet the ABs squad was heavily weighted towards the Crusaders.

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#3153859 31-Oct-2023 08:12

GV27:
Handle9:

He didn't apologize for a wrong penalty, he said “Sorry, mate, I didn’t see the replay. I thought you stayed on him. I didn’t see you come off enough.”

There's nothing there that says he apologized for the decision, he apologized for not seeing the replay.

There's a lot of revisionist history going on.

That's not really relevant - you don't have to come off someone 'enough', you just have to make sure you actually release them before you play at the ball.

You don't have to make a big song and dance about it, you just have to do it.

Whether you do that to the extent that makes Wayne Barnes happy is irrelevant. If you've released them, you've released them.

You quite literally have to make it clear to the referee that you have released the player. The tip is in the “clear” part of clear release.

networkn

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#3153860 31-Oct-2023 08:13

GV27:

The Blues played some of the best rugby ever seen in 2003 yet the ABs squad was heavily weighted towards the Crusaders.

Wow, 20 Years ago? Hold a grudge much?

Nonu played a lot of poor super Rugby but wearing the Black Jersey became super human.

Many said that despite the awful way Blues finished the finals, there should have been less Blues in the AB's squad this year.

Picking a team isn't soley based on form, it's about picking the right people for the opponent, people who can work well together, make good combinations or have specific qualities that may not be absolutely about Rugby skill. IE Communication.

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