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  Reply # 1649317 11-Oct-2016 16:36
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The problem is the aero changes do not look liek they're going to cause any less dirty air.  The wings themselves are slightly less wingletty(tm) but the air will still be dirty enough from all reports to cause trouble with the car behind.  I hope I'm wrong, really I do but I'm not confident of changes.




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  Reply # 1649321 11-Oct-2016 16:42
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Benoire:

 

The problem is the aero changes do not look liek they're going to cause any less dirty air.  The wings themselves are slightly less wingletty(tm) but the air will still be dirty enough from all reports to cause trouble with the car behind.  I hope I'm wrong, really I do but I'm not confident of changes.

 

 

I agree, in that it wont solve the issue, but if we increase mechanical grip by more than aero grip, the problem decreases. Take the S's at Suzuka, they aren't fast bends, I feel the tyres would dominate there. (Yeah I know its too narrow there)

 

There was more action than expected at Japan, passing has been good this year, that can only improve

 

 


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  Reply # 1649354 11-Oct-2016 17:24
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tdgeek:

 

Benoire:

 

But the problem will still exist:

 

  • Car 1 has full grip/aero - can drive fast
  • Car 2 has full grip but compromised aero, which therefore affects grip and can't follow as close.

Slow corners will be fine as aero is not involved there, but mid/high speed which the aero affects means that hte following cars aero is compromised so it can't follow as fast as the car that has full aero / grip.

 

Another way:

 

Grip = 50%; Aero = 50%

 

  • Car 1 has 50% Grip / 50% Aero
  • Car 2 has 50% Grip / 35% Aero

So in this case, car 2s aero has been compromised and it cannot drive as fast.  Unless they've solved the air disruption in to the front wing and floor, by making the aero less vortexy and smoother from the rear of the leading car, the following car will always suffer.

 

Certainly this is how I see it and aero needs to not be a dominant component for it to not have an effect.

 

 

 

 

I agree, but...

 

With todays tyres, you have grip caused by the tyres, and the downforce. As the tyres are much wider, the speed the car can turn a bend and retain mechanical grip increases.

 

Yes, so does the car in front, but in percentage terms the amount caused by aero will be less than that caused by tyres. Say its 50/50 now, next year if tyres are 65 and aero 35 that lessens the aero effect as the tyres can pick that up. Another factor is tyre drag. The car behind gets less, and while the parts of the front wrong are for the sole purpose of pushing air around the tyre to reduce drag, maybe with bigger tyres, they cant get that same level of efficiency, so a gain for the car behind.

 

 

I'm going to settle this once and for all, Toto Wolff says so. That following and overtaking will be harder next year. But he could be wrong of course. 


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  Reply # 1649422 11-Oct-2016 19:27
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If 2017 doesn't pan out with more mechanical grip then I think we'll see Redbull dominance again.  Engine performance is pretty much static now, and Adrian Newey is the master of complex aero.


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  Reply # 1649434 11-Oct-2016 20:10
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Benoire:

If 2017 doesn't pan out with more mechanical grip then I think we'll see Redbull dominance again.  Engine performance is pretty much static now, and Adrian Newey is the master of complex aero.



And next year brings unlimited engine development so Mercedes engines could be matched in that department as well.

Mercedes have had a big headstart on development though with a constructors title in the bag from the first few races, while Redbull and Ferrari are still squabbling.



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  Reply # 1649535 12-Oct-2016 00:01
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joker97:

 

tdgeek:

 

Benoire:

 

But the problem will still exist:

 

  • Car 1 has full grip/aero - can drive fast
  • Car 2 has full grip but compromised aero, which therefore affects grip and can't follow as close.

Slow corners will be fine as aero is not involved there, but mid/high speed which the aero affects means that hte following cars aero is compromised so it can't follow as fast as the car that has full aero / grip.

 

Another way:

 

Grip = 50%; Aero = 50%

 

  • Car 1 has 50% Grip / 50% Aero
  • Car 2 has 50% Grip / 35% Aero

So in this case, car 2s aero has been compromised and it cannot drive as fast.  Unless they've solved the air disruption in to the front wing and floor, by making the aero less vortexy and smoother from the rear of the leading car, the following car will always suffer.

 

Certainly this is how I see it and aero needs to not be a dominant component for it to not have an effect.

 

 

 

 

I agree, but...

 

With todays tyres, you have grip caused by the tyres, and the downforce. As the tyres are much wider, the speed the car can turn a bend and retain mechanical grip increases.

 

Yes, so does the car in front, but in percentage terms the amount caused by aero will be less than that caused by tyres. Say its 50/50 now, next year if tyres are 65 and aero 35 that lessens the aero effect as the tyres can pick that up. Another factor is tyre drag. The car behind gets less, and while the parts of the front wrong are for the sole purpose of pushing air around the tyre to reduce drag, maybe with bigger tyres, they cant get that same level of efficiency, so a gain for the car behind.

 

 

I'm going to settle this once and for all, Toto Wolff says so. That following and overtaking will be harder next year. But he could be wrong of course. 

 

 

Yeah, we don't know. Eric Bouiller said this ""The car will generate more downforce from the tyres, so mechanically, which should not hurt the overtaking numbers," he said. "Additionally, the influence of the front wing will be lower, since the floor and the diffuser will generate more downforce, allowing more overtaking."

 

 




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  Reply # 1649536 12-Oct-2016 00:09
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Benoire:

 

If 2017 doesn't pan out with more mechanical grip then I think we'll see Redbull dominance again.  Engine performance is pretty much static now, and Adrian Newey is the master of complex aero.

 

 

Mechanical grip is a guarantee, given the much larger width of the tyres. Diffuser and the floor adds more. Yes, more downforce from the car in front but as Eric B said, the front wing is less affected than it is now. 

 

This year, overtaking has been good. Anecdotally, Ive seen less "my tyres are getting destroyed by following" maybe due to teams not being prepared to run lap after lap after lap in that fashion. Tyres, diffuser, floor, less aero affected front wing all add to the speed, so what I would assume and hope, is that we have what we have today, but better. The other factor is its harder to drive, if corner speeds are up, straight line speeds are up a bit (due to better traction on exit) then the driver needs a better reaction time and judgement for braking markers, so the cream should rise to the top. Hopefully compressing the grid at the pointy end, where most of the talent live. And for the lesser lights to show they arent lesser lights. 




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  Reply # 1661749 31-Oct-2016 21:48
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I dir recall laughing in a race before, or such a fun post race. Most of it was predictable, not really a lot to see, until Max took his shortcut. Seb swearing away, Seb doing Max's move twice on Danny Ricc.

 

Edit: The idiot journo who said to Seb in the press conference, what were the beep beep words? What an idiot 




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  Reply # 1661758 31-Oct-2016 22:01
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Just saw Vettel got a penalty. Unsure why Lewis didn't as he gained track time from his shortcut. The penalty there should have been to back off and reduce the gap.

 

Overall, a lack lustre race, that was good at the end


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  Reply # 1661785 31-Oct-2016 22:53
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Agreed on the race, that track is fast but still quite difficult to pass. Was it Perez that sat behind the Williams for 30+laps?

 

A lot of inconsistency in the stewards decisions;Hamilton should have gotten a 5sec at first pit stop (he couldn't 'give' a place to Rosberg or Ves as they were knocking each other around) which would have given Ros a chance to overtake (and spiced up the front a bit more). Ves 'should' have given the place to Vettel as advised over team radio but did the team thing and backed Vettel into Ric instead.  The stewards could have been more active on this and made the 5 sec penalty call during the race and Vettel wouldn't have been so agro.  Had either of those things happened its likely that Ric on Vet wouldn't have happened (Ves would have been trying to make a 5 sec margin and Vet trying to stay within it).

 

I'm not a huge Vet fan but I think he was hard done by, he left a cars width up the inside and his direction change wasn't a vicious move like Ves has done previously.  Good driving by both sides kept it from turning bad, but thats what these guys are paid to do (and what we like to see).  10 sec for that vs 5 sec for gaining an advantage.. not sure the penalty fits the crime.





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  Reply # 1661801 31-Oct-2016 23:47
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Stewards are useless. Some decisions are instant and others take too long.

They say Hamilton didn't get a penalty because he was in front when he cut the track. But would have have been first if he had slowed down and rejoined before the corner? I think not.



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  Reply # 1661830 1-Nov-2016 07:33
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benokobi: Stewards are useless. Some decisions are instant and others take too long.

They say Hamilton didn't get a penalty because he was in front when he cut the track. But would have have been first if he had slowed down and rejoined before the corner? I think not.

 

If he had stayed first, thats ok, but he gained track time, and with DRS, track time is key. 

 

The fault with Verstappens cutting the corner, is they should have got that out quick, to avoid the mess of issues after that. yes, they always leave late issues to after the race, but that was clear as a bell, and at least his team should have said you may get a 5 second penalty, allow for that


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  Reply # 1661935 1-Nov-2016 11:25
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tdgeek:

 

benokobi: Stewards are useless. Some decisions are instant and others take too long.

They say Hamilton didn't get a penalty because he was in front when he cut the track. But would have have been first if he had slowed down and rejoined before the corner? I think not.

 

If he had stayed first, thats ok, but he gained track time, and with DRS, track time is key. <snip>

 

 

 

 

In fact, the reason for Hamilton escaping penalty for his T1 excursion was because telemetry data showed that he backed off immediately to forego any track time gained.

 

 

 

Besides that - the Stewards can't exactly penalise a driver (Hamilton) for missing Turn2 by making him "give back" a place to another driver (Rosberg) who was never in front, not attempting an overtake at the time, and who *also* missed making Turn2.  (albeit for different reasons)

 

 

 

It was different in Max's case because he was defending an overtake at the time, and he clearly maintained his position by not rejoining before Turn2 and gaining the grass advantage.

 

 

 

But the Vettel memes are becoming funnier by the race :-)

 


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  Reply # 1661940 1-Nov-2016 11:27
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 That's not a meme is it?


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  Reply # 1661941 1-Nov-2016 11:32
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At the end of the day it matters for rat's tail who is 3rd or 5th.

 

Vettel got to go on podium and drink champagne.

 

D Ric is going to be 3rd overall regardless, looking at how his RB is performing vs 2 more races.

 

But Max is very Hamilton, Schumacher and Senna-esque in his ways forcing his way up the ranks.


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