Latham averages 22 at home, you wouldnt get selected for Bangladesh. He can only perform against spin. Period. Listen to even commentators. His glove work is fair, its not great, its fair. We have so many other better batsmen and keepers.
We go from extreme rage in our openers, Munro and Gil to class to piss weak blockers in Latham, Santner, Astle all way down to Southee.
If we replace Latham with Phillips, Astle with George worker we have a very strong aggressive batting line complemented by the class of Williamson, Taylor, Nicholls all the way to 8.
Keeping in mind De Grone Holme will return and is a far better batsman than Santner, as for Astle, i just dont see the point of a weaker version of Santner. I know its just testing out the squad, but we shouldnt be doing this against the best teams, ok we are winning, but trust me Pakistan are FAR better than they have shown, look at their batsman and bowling averages.
Santner is only 10 due to being in the Blackcaps, currently 3rd but should be 2nd by end of home season. He never saves us with the bat, he only gets wickets at the tail. De Gron Holme has to come back in with his average and 1st class record with the bat and his fair performance with the ball. He does one thing very well and the other fair. Santner just does both fair. De Gron Holme has won us matches, Santner has been there to watch.
If we are to pursue this Santner fad, we at least need Phillips to replace Latham to give us batting power and De gron Holme to come in prior to Santner to back up that batting power, then Santner, then Southee another power player (better than most realise). We can get a team that bats very well all the way to 8 and bowls very well to 4th bowler and Santner can slow the run rate, but personaly Munro is taking more wickets as a part timer, so Id just leave Santner out and chuck George Worker in there so we basically bat to 9. That way if the opening aggression doesnt work and Taylor and Williamson both have an off day, we still have 5 batsmen left and the bowling attack to back up 350 scores. 250 just isnt good enough against Australia.
The Far Side is brilliant :-), Gavin Larsen is a bit like that as a selector.
Ill give you WI are, but the team in green have 3 batsmen averaging better than anyone in our team and 2 of the best pace bowlers in the world. Hence them winning 9 in a row prior to NZ.
And this is actually part of my point.
Santner looks ok against the WI and the mean in green, but when Australia and England arrive after them, he is going to get a new one torn.
Did you even watch the Aus v Eng match last night?
Jason Roy, nearly carried his bat, bet all English Records and partnership records with Joe Root and the MCG record with 180odd at 120SR. Along with Eng setting a new MCG chase record. They were averaing 12 an over for 8 or so, then just took the foot off and coasted home with 400 looking like an easy score for them against the number one team in the world.
England bat deep and like NZ open with T20 style, they could put on 400 against NZ and if we dont have a deep batting lineup with strike batsmen we will ploddle along to our current 250 scores and look like we dont have any talent, while it sits in 1st class teams waiting.
Santner is better than Astle in bowling imo. Astle for a wristy doesnt get any turn. But they picked Santner as a batsman specialist for this summer.
He should not be in the ODI or T20 squad. Williamson and Munro both bowl about as good, perhaps Munro better. And in Tests, Id be picking somebody who actually turns the ball, a real Wrist spinner, Ish Sodhi, its a joke we dont play him on turning wickets.
Id love it if Santner was a Vetorri who could also bat, but hes neither and I think being an auto pick for the team is a joke. Im not saying he cant be used but picking him as a gimme like hes Taylor or Williamson is absurd. Especially in the shorter form where teams will take spinners to the cleaners, especially ones who cant turn the ball.
NZ wont win a game in this tri series coming up if we dont bat deep. The game is no longer about bowling. Its about batsmen who can hit 50 in 25 balls and a team of 8-9 of them. Players like Joe Root and Kane Williamson look pedestrian in the game now. Yes its a shame to a purist, but its what the T20 format has done to the game.
250 use to be a good score, Id say it will win 5% of games in the top 5 teams now.
So NZ opens fast, great, but we then have Williamson sorts down to Santner who is a Williamson wannabe and then some pace bowlers thankfully who can add 50 runs quickly.
We need to adapt to what cricket is now in ODIs and T20. We no longer have the players of the last world cup to carry us to 300 fast.
My team would be
Guptill Munro Williamson Taylor Worker Nicholson Phillips (keeper) De Gron Holme Southee Fergusson Boult
Share 10overs between the part timers with Munro bowling at least 6. Thats a team of proven 1st class players with high strike rates mixed with the old guard of Williamson and Taylor who can anchor an innings and Nicholson in case they both fail. Batting to 8 with such players is going to make us VERY competitive with England and Aus. They also have similar teams. I expect that to be a consistant 330-370 scoring team.
If our pacement cant get wickets, somebody like Santner wont and is just going to get smashed by players in both these teams who lover finger spinners they can charge. And if our bowling doesnt take wickets (which is now so common with the kookaburra ball now barely swinging), we have the batsmen to chase down 350+.
Speaking of the Kookaburra, remember a season or 2 back where the red ball was being changed every 20 overs or so, they obviouslly had to do something to fix the problem, if you have felt the new ones they are definitely solid, but I think thats the end of extreme swing in NZ. Even Starc has lost his in swinging yorker. I so darely would love if NZ would use Duke balls instead so Southee and Boult could get that metre of swing happening. But in some ways we now are forced to find other methods of wicket taking. And NZ is now designed for runs like Aus wickets.
That comment re NZ having low slow wickets, pfffft, maybe if you arent a fan you might think so, but all major pitches had their soil changed due to the World Cup. They use a different clay now which is harder. Our wickets are as fast generally as anywhere. Sure the odd small towns havnt been upgraded but we rarely use them even more mid week matches.
Santners bowling figures in his last 5 games against Australia make it very clear he's going to get smashed. He's taken 21 wickets in 14 games @ 26.42 / 5.76 RPO, which is world class against Australia. Imran Tahir has 15 wickets in 13 matches @ 34.44 / 4.72 RPO. It would be nice if there was some basis of fact to your rants. He's only played one game against England since 2015 so it'd less conclusive there.
It is very clear that in short form cricket Santner is a bowler who can bat rather than the other way round. I'm not sure what you vendetta is against him but it gets pretty old fast.
It is very clear that in short form cricket Santner is a bowler who can bat rather than the other way round. I'm not sure what you vendetta is against him but it gets pretty old fast.
I dont have one. Today is a great example of when Id use him in the team, on a turning wicket, in fact Id pick Ish Sodhi to replace Fergusson as well.
Santner does both OK, but a genuine all rounder, like Hadlee, they can do one thing extremely well and the other well. Or in Jaques Kalais case do both extremely well, probably the best all round cricketer ever. Now I dont expect Santner to be that good, but hes not even 50% as good. Hes useful on a turning wicket. He will fool a lot of players with flight, a lot like Vettori.
Edit: He usually only gets wickets when its the dregs left. So its nice to see him wisely bought on early and cause havoc with his loop and some turn and get a quality wicket.
Wow on review thats a new ball hes learnt, turning away from the leftie. Now if he continues to learn new things, thats what will make him worth his weight. But he cant be selected as a specialist batsman again. Hes handy if he has no pressure on him with the bat, so provided we get most of those other players in the team, Santner will be useful on these pitches.
Kane Williamson showing hes about as good as any with the finger spin, he just doesnt practise enough. I thought Munro would get more overs. But happy to see Kane bowling, he can be good. Just needs more net time with the ball, which hes clearly been doing.
Santner is turning it, Id love to see a genuine Wrist spinner on this pitch, Ish Sodhi would look like Shane Warne. Speaking of which I really like Mason Crane who debut for Eng in their final Aus Ashes test. He really turns it like Warne, age 20 hes got a big future ahead of him and I hope he plays in our 3 tests.
My point in this thread wasnt just Santner, it was NZ has always struggled to make big runs and have a very deep batting line up. Use to rely on dibbly dobblers before we changed the pitch clay. Now we have bastmen VERY suited to ODI play, why are we not playing them?
So Williamson bowls out, doesnt even bowl Munro. Id rather have a batsmen averaging 40 with a strike rate of 130, than a part time bowler who averages 25 with the bat at 70 odd SR, ie Santner. We just dont NEED him, Williamson and Munro are just as good with the ball and both of them can bat. So chuck Worker into the Squad, Phillips at keeper and we bat averaging 30 with high strike rate all the way down to 8.
Im not saying we cant use him when it suits, but the team as a whole needs a complete lineup overhaul to make those big triple hundreds to be competitive with the top 3 above us.
We just dont NEED him, Williamson and Munro are just as good with the ball and both of them can bat. So chuck Worker into the Squad, Phillips at keeper and we bat averaging 30 with high strike rate all the way down to 8.
I don't even particularly care about the sport, let alone the issue at hand, but have been frankly appalled at your pathetic one-man vendetta against the guy (and Handle9 is right -- your thing with Santner is exactly that). Facts aren't free - you don't get to make it up to please yourself. How can you dislike someone so much that you need to post regularly about the person whilst introducing Donald Trump-esque reality distortion?
Williamson's ODI bowling stats:
Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave EconSR
121 59 1269 1175 33 4/22 4/22 35.60 5.55 38.4
Santner's:
46 43 2090 1711 52 5/50 5/50 32.90 4.91 40.1
Clearly, Williamson is just as good a bowler. And somehow no one should care the current ICC bowler rankings either.
My point in this thread wasnt just Santner, it was NZ has always struggled to make big runs and have a very deep batting line up. Use to rely on dibbly dobblers before we changed the pitch clay. Now we have bastmen VERY suited to ODI play, why are we not playing them?
So Williamson bowls out, doesnt even bowl Munro. Id rather have a batsmen averaging 40 with a strike rate of 130, than a part time bowler who averages 25 with the bat at 70 odd SR, ie Santner. We just dont NEED him, Williamson and Munro are just as good with the ball and both of them can bat. So chuck Worker into the Squad, Phillips at keeper and we bat averaging 30 with high strike rate all the way down to 8.
Im not saying we cant use him when it suits, but the team as a whole needs a complete lineup overhaul to make those big triple hundreds to be competitive with the top 3 above us.
You seem to know more than Larsen, who is not the sole selector. Its a team effort. I love tennis, I might seek to be Nadal's coach. I'm a couch coach, I know everything. I thought about Kyrgios, but no thanks
Williamson out. I'd live to see Santner see them home lol. But IMHO,a loss will be good for them. Its not the best team ever Mark Reason. A loss will cause a reset to reality. Then they can kick on
Williamson out. I'd live to see Santner see them home lol. But IMHO,a loss will be good for them. Its not the best team ever Mark Reason. A loss will cause a reset to reality. Then they can kick on
you are just trolling. geek ;-p
my point is proven today. we bowled 7 bowlers. williamson out bowled santner.
our openers had us lookining to cruise home but a failure by the tinklers all the way down to de gron holme looked like losing us a gimme.
instead of being a troll try an understand the logic.
we dont need 7 bowlers.
we have 3 more batsmen that can score 50-100 at 200SR, why arent we replacing our keeper who averages 23 at home and santner who averages 23 with 2 of those batsmen.
not only this, its the placement in the team of those batsmen.
phillips in for latham. george worker in for santner but ahead of de gron holme.
that will keep the momentum of guptill and munro flowing through the tinklers we have to keep (williamson, taylor, nicholson) and ending at 44avg in de gron holme. and in the games we have a turning wicket we play santner. replacing worker.
instead of trying to belittle valid opinions, how about try giving a reason why it is not what we should be doing? you are the expert your sarcasm and churlish behavior suggests you are in the blackcaps camp. prove it. you can do it, you have the finger right on the pulse of NZ 1st class cricket.
If Guptill, Munro and De Gron Holme werent playing tonight, we would have lost, period. because our tinklers which is a group of 4 in a row and was 6 in a row when astle after santner, is a group of players pretending its test cricket. we need to break that grouping up with the available high strike rate players we have one after each of these more traditional players, staggered.
we have 3 other players in the vein of good averages at high strike rates, to replace some of those tinklers and keep the run rate at 6-7 throughout the innings.
why the heck would you not select them for ODIs? at least blood those players and stop being stubborn selecting the same imbalanced team. we do have a better squad available.
sure, play Santner and Latham against the bottom 4 teams on turning wickets just to keep them in the loop, but they need to be focussed on a team that hits 4s and 6s every over.
im just glad we didnt lose tonight, thank you Colin, saved the match. also well done Nicholls for anchoring.
You claim you don't have a fixation on Santner but you were saying the same nonsense when he was 3rd equal top wicket taker in the T20 World cup. Hes super consistent and our 2nd or 3rd most effective white ball bowler. Just because he doesn't give the ball a massive rip doesn't mean he's not an excellent bowler.
I think Virat Kohli has a much more credible opinion on Santner than what you do.
Saying things like we have to drop Larsen if he doesn't drop Santner makes it very hard to take what you are saying seriously. Similarly by claiming that Vettori wasn't a good spinner.
The only reason that we struggled tonight were brain dead shots by Munro and Guptill. They both need a kick in the posterior for then way they got out.
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