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  Reply # 1941216 16-Jan-2018 22:16
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TeaLeaf:

If Guptill, Munro and De Gron Holme werent playing tonight, we would have lost, period.



This is perceptive. Playing 8 against Pakistan may well have evened the contest.

Just watching Bedene playing Federer at the Aussie Open - I reckon if Federer wasn’t playing, Bedene would have a chance.




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  Reply # 1941223 16-Jan-2018 23:35
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TeaLeaf:

my point is proven today. we bowled 7 bowlers. williamson out bowled santner.




Because one game is such a statistically significant example. Posts like yours and posters like you are the biggest drawback to the off topic forums off topic IMO. The delicious hypocrisy in you accusing someone of trolling when you continue to blather despite all the facts thrown at your fact is getting a bit much.


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  Reply # 1941243 17-Jan-2018 07:18
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TeaLeaf:

 

tdgeek:

 

Williamson out. I'd live to see Santner see them home lol. But IMHO,a loss will be good for them. Its not the best team ever Mark Reason. A loss will cause a reset to reality. Then they can kick on

 

 

you are just trolling. geek ;-p

 

my point is proven today. we bowled 7 bowlers. williamson out bowled santner.

 

our openers had us lookining to cruise home but a failure by the tinklers all the way down to de gron holme looked like losing us a gimme.

 

instead of being a troll try an understand the logic.

 

we dont need 7 bowlers.

 

we have 3 more batsmen that can score 50-100 at 200SR, why arent we replacing our keeper who averages 23 at home and santner who averages 23 with 2 of those batsmen.

 

not only this, its the placement in the team of those batsmen.

 

phillips in for latham. george worker in for santner but ahead of de gron holme. 

 

that will keep the momentum of guptill and munro flowing through the tinklers we have to keep (williamson, taylor, nicholson) and ending at 44avg in de gron holme. and in the games we have a turning wicket we play santner. replacing worker.

 

instead of trying to belittle valid opinions, how about try giving a reason why it is not what we should be doing? you are the expert your sarcasm and churlish behavior suggests you are in the blackcaps camp. prove it. you can do it, you have the finger right on the pulse of NZ 1st class cricket.

 

 

Im not trolling, you are just ranting. So what if player A had a better day than player B? Is a career defined by one game?

 

Sarcasm and churlish, grow up. Your posts have already been belittled by others before I came along. As to experts that is clearly you who know more than the BC management team.

 

Pass your ideas to the Black Caps. That team and posters here, all by the looks of it, do not see your opinions as valid. LOL, no I am not in the Black Caps camp. I dont rate this current team that high. Its pretty good, has potential, but playing WI who are poor right now, and a young, enthusiastic but inexperienced Paki team (As defined by Rixon) doesnt mean a lot. Every now and then a player plays out of his skin, as DeG did. And saves a game, a game yesterday we were done like a dinner


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  Reply # 1941244 17-Jan-2018 07:20
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dejadeadnz:
.. the biggest drawback to the off topic forums off topic IMO. ...

 

Been wondering myself why it wasn't posted under 'Sports' in the first place.





Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. (T.S. Eliot)


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  Reply # 1941246 17-Jan-2018 07:41
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BlinkyBill:
TeaLeaf:

 

If Guptill, Munro and De Gron Holme werent playing tonight, we would have lost, period.

 



This is perceptive. Playing 8 against Pakistan may well have evened the contest.

Just watching Bedene playing Federer at the Aussie Open - I reckon if Federer wasn’t playing, Bedene would have a chance.

 

I saw a bit of it, should have watched it! I read he made the running early on.

 

Agut and Raonic out too, very suprised about the latter




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  Reply # 1941472 17-Jan-2018 12:37
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tdgeek:

 

Im not trolling, you are just ranting. Sarcasm and churlish, grow up. Your posts have already been belittled by others before I came along. As to experts that is clearly you who know more than the BC management team.

 

 

Yes you were, saying things like I know more than Larsen, just churlish trolling. And calling me childish is a rhetorical obsession of yourself. :-)

 

Ok lets wait for Aus and Eng to arrive for the Tri series and see if Im wrong. We were 1 wicket away from losing last night. 

 

How will we go chasing 375 at the basin with huge boundaries? lol.

 

I just dont get people cant see my point when you look at our line up. Its not staggered with high strike rate quality batsmen. Its a puddle of tinklers who can widdle their way to 50 off 75 balls, or in Lathams case just get out. 

 

Im not saying we dump Latham and Santner forever, but if the commentators are agreeing with what Im saying and local cricketers the same, Im happy in my opinion. The days of picking 1 squad for Test, ODI and now T20 are GONE. As are for every pitch type. We need more customisable squads.

 

Its not that hard, you simply put Phillips in for Latham and worker in for Santner but push him up the line. The following squad is staggered with players of Munros style and tinklers like Williamson who can anchor the innings. Latham being a tinkler averaging 20 at home, has to give way to 3 other keepers pressing his position, and he will be back in for the sub continent which he plays very well, Santner pretty much the same story, at home he doesnt offer a lot, hes ok against lower teams but this upcoming Tri Series, we need batting depth. So our batting would go all the way to De Gron Holme, it would not stagnate like yesterday which nearly lost us the game until De Gron Holme came in, this line up will avoid that. And having your last batsman/all rounder averaging 44 odd is not a bad squad. I know hes not had a lot of games for NZ but hes been terrorising bowlers for 10 years in our 1st class. This team below I believe can chase down 400. On a good day could score 500. Thats where ODI is heading now due to T20. We need to play our best T20 squadin ODIs essentially. Id be tempted to drop Fergusson for Ish Sodhi on the turning wickets and or have Santner rejoin the team, ie Hamilton.

 

MJ Guptill 

 

C Munro 

 

* KS Williamson 

 

LRPL Taylor 

 

†Phillips (Latham interchange)

 

HM Nicholls 

 

Worker (Santner intechange)

 

De Gron Holme

 

TG Southee 

 

LH Ferguson 

 

TA Boult




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  Reply # 1941479 17-Jan-2018 12:41
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However in Larsens wisdom, for the T20s, instead of choosing king hitting batsmen hes chosen a couple more players in the style of Santner and Santner looks like Warne compared to these guys. Happy Ish Sodhi is in the squad. I just feel Larsen is stuck in the old days before we changed the clay when his dibbly dobbly sub medium pace frustrated players. Good players like Warner, Finch, Joy, they dont care if you bowl slow or can do a change up, they have the eye to wait for the ball and put all the pace into the shot themselves.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/100645414/Ben-Wheeler-returns-to-Black-Caps-for-Twenty20-series-against-Pakistan




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  Reply # 1943430 19-Jan-2018 11:39
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Today is a prime example of what Im talking about.

 

NZ were scoring 10 po which is reasonable. Munro fails at 35 odd off 14 as hes entitled too.

 

Williamson comes in and does not care that the fielding is setup to hit over the top and the run rate drops in 2 overs to 8po.

 

Williamson being an accumulator test player should feed the strike to guptil, when Guptil gets out another Guptil/Munro sort comes out. But they wont, all the way down to De Gron Holme and thats what nearly cost us the last match.

 

If you are not hitting 100sr and over you shouldnt be in the top 8 imo.

 

So replace Latham who scores 20avg at 60SR and Santner who scores about the same for Phillips and Worker and stagger the sloggers and up the game of Williamson and Nicholls (Taylor generally is pretty good). And when we play tests sure put Latham and Santner back in, as you need people who can bat LONG periods.

 

There is no reason NZ shouldnt score 400 on a fast pitch like today.

 

Edit: Doull is commenting on Williamsons ultra slow starts this summer. He just needs to hit 1s, but he blocks 4 then hits a 1.


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  Reply # 1943443 19-Jan-2018 11:51
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TeaLeaf:

 

Today is a prime example of what Im talking about.

 

NZ were scoring 10 po which is reasonable. Munro fails at 35 odd off 14 as hes entitled too.

 

Williamson comes in and does not care that the fielding is setup to hit over the top and the run rate drops in 2 overs to 8po.

 

Williamson being an accumulator test player should feed the strike to guptil, when Guptil gets out another Guptil/Munro sort comes out. But they wont, all the way down to De Gron Holme and thats what nearly cost us the last match.

 

If you are not hitting 100sr and over you shouldnt be in the top 8 imo.

 

So replace Latham who scores 20avg at 60SR and Santner who scores about the same for Phillips and Worker and stagger the sloggers and up the game of Williamson and Nicholls (Taylor generally is pretty good). And when we play tests sure put Latham and Santner back in, as you need people who can bat LONG periods.

 

There is no reason NZ shouldnt score 400 on a fast pitch like today.

 

 

The opening RR is immaterial. If it was 10, it wont remain at 10. If it was 1, it wont remain at 1. KW is starting slower, but he will likely finish at 100, so if thats the case, it doesnt matter. He is reducing the chance of losing his wicket, that investment is paid back when other batters have wickets to play with

 

400. Thats not going to happen. They cannot play an almost T20 RR for 50 overs. When Munro was going for it, the RR was near enough to 8, that will never be maintained as its higher risk. 




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  Reply # 1943448 19-Jan-2018 11:57
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

The opening RR is immaterial. If it was 10, it wont remain at 10. If it was 1, it wont remain at 1. KW is starting slower, but he will likely finish at 100, so if thats the case, it doesnt matter. He is reducing the chance of losing his wicket, that investment is paid back when other batters have wickets to play with

 

400. Thats not going to happen. They cannot play an almost T20 RR for 50 overs. When Munro was going for it, the RR was near enough to 8, that will never be maintained as its higher risk. 

 

 

OK thats where we disagree. The game has changed. 250 is below par yet NZ defends it against lesser teams. Although lets keep in mind the current team we are playing holds the Champion Trophy.

 

I dont see the point of opening with a Guptil/Munro just to block out the rest of the innings. Its not how Aus or Eng roll, why should we when we have the players to play a controlled version of T20 style for 50 over.

 

320 is the old 250, 400 is the big score.

 

With the Aussies rigging ODIs with the Kookaburra which doesnt swing and at home with concrete pitches, NZ has had to follow, hence our faster wickets now. Bowling in ODIs has zero focus, crowds want to see t20 for 50 overs.

 

I personally think NZ should use both balls, the English Duke in tests for Boult and Southee.

 

I dont mind Williamson being a blocker, my problem is he hogs the strike. Sure 100 is handy, but at a SR of 60, that means hes not feeding the strike to players who will score the other runs needed at 75-120SR

 

I believe if you put Phillips and Worker in this current team, we can win the next world cup. Id even be prepared to say drop Ferguson and keep Santner, because whilst he doesnt score fast, he can anchor our sloggers at the bottom.

 

AND if Boult and Southee dont knock over the top 4, it doesnt matter who you bowl. Especially when you also have Williamson and Munro who have very healthy bowling.

 

I honestly do think NZ can be #1 Again, but that big void of accumulators in the middle is whats keeping our scores below the 350 we will need at least once in this up coming tri series.

 

If 1 of those 5 sloggers gets more than the expected 40-50 in t20 style and goes on with it like Jason Roy the other night for Eng getting 180, we will be garunteed a win in every game. As a betting guy, I think 1 out 5 is very good odds. Have the Williamson, Taylor, Nicholson, Santner provide a support role and rotate the strike and worst case they get 100 off 60 balls, great, we still have some score board pressure to play with. Im simply saying we need to stagger this old school ODI style with the new guys, like Aus are doing.




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  Reply # 1943457 19-Jan-2018 12:10
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Lol now the commentators are suggesting exactly what Im saying.

 

Phillips and Worker in amongst the names mentioned.

 

But Mark Richardson saying Phillips at 3 for me is wrong, we need  anchors like Williamson amongst them.


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  Reply # 1943458 19-Jan-2018 12:11
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250 used to be par, now its 275. 310 is a top score. When all the ducks line up you can get more.

 

Guptill and Munro dont open to block out the innings, they are there to get a start and a RR. If they stay a while that is a bonus. If one goes out earlier, thats fine, it happens.

 

As I said look at KW's RR at the end of his innings.

 

T20. Short game, same number of wickets to play with, so risks can be taken. You cant expect to take the same T20 risk yet bat another 30 overs. They could easily target 400, just maintain an 8 over rate, not hard. It then all depends if they bat 20 overs or 28 or 38




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  Reply # 1943465 19-Jan-2018 12:29
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tdgeek:

 

250 used to be par, now its 275. 310 is a top score. When all the ducks line up you can get more.

 

Guptill and Munro dont open to block out the innings, they are there to get a start and a RR. If they stay a while that is a bonus. If one goes out earlier, thats fine, it happens.

 

As I said look at KW's RR at the end of his innings.

 

T20. Short game, same number of wickets to play with, so risks can be taken. You cant expect to take the same T20 risk yet bat another 30 overs. They could easily target 400, just maintain an 8 over rate, not hard. It then all depends if they bat 20 overs or 28 or 38

 

 

36/20, Williamson out.

 

7 runs an over is not risky any longer with a mix of T20 and Test players. I think you are under rating what our team could achieve, well they will have to in the upcoming tri series.

 

That t20 for 50 overs risk is mitigated by that staggering of these extra fast scoring players. Just dont listen to Mark Richardson.

 

If Guptill goes on today it will be the same effect as having the 2 extra batsmen. We kind of need him to, because if it goes like the other day and De Gron Holme fails, we will score 200.

 

I think Phillips for Latham at home in ODIs is a given. Has to happen. Santner, I just cant be bothered thinking about as hes just not good enough at bowling or batting to win matches. Another batsmen to replace him could win us matches, but I know the selector will continue selecting him like hes Donald Bradman.




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  Reply # 1943468 19-Jan-2018 12:35
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Taylor straight into it. Thats who the accumulators need to learn from. Taylor is the perfect Test player who can play ODIs, because of his intent, which is to score and rotate strike.

 

And thats what the game is all about, intent. NZ's intent from Williamson to Southee, prior to De Gron Holme coming back, felt like the intent was to block out an innings to save a test match. Generally thats the feel I was getting with the selected team. Its better now clearly with De Gron Holme winning them the last game. But Phillips and maybe one more top quality 1st class player with a high strike rate, staggered in our line up really would have us VERY competitive with Australia.


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  Reply # 1943474 19-Jan-2018 12:48
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TeaLeaf:

 

Taylor straight into it. Thats who the accumulators need to learn from. Taylor is the perfect Test player who can play ODIs, because of his intent, which is to score and rotate strike.

 

And thats what the game is all about, intent. NZ's intent from Williamson to Southee, prior to De Gron Holme coming back, felt like the intent was to block out an innings to save a test match. Generally thats the feel I was getting with the selected team. Its better now clearly with De Gron Holme winning them the last game. But Phillips and maybe one more top quality 1st class player with a high strike rate, staggered in our line up really would have us VERY competitive with Australia.

 

 

Taylor is less than 50% RR

 

When KW was batting it was under 50, when he went out it was low 60's and he went for a 6, so he got himself in to stay longer and was pushing on. Thats the plan

 

7 an over is not risky, cannot agree


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