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  Reply # 1994294 11-Apr-2018 15:35
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kryptonjohn:

 

 

 

Does anybody really believe, in the face of all the evidence, that Laurel didn't have an unfair advantage over the other women? 

 

 

Rikkitic?


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  Reply # 1994315 11-Apr-2018 16:06
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Here are links to two scientific papers citing extensive research that concludes that there is no evidence that transgender athletes have a competitive advantage. This has been accepted by international competitive sports bodies including the IOC. 

 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-016-0621-y

 

http://www.caaws.ca/e/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Devries_lit_review2.pdf

 

I can find many more papers like this, but I don't see much point since the armchair experts here clearly know so much better.

 

What is unfair is to pass judgements on someone's abilities because you feel it must be so. She has bigger shoulders than the competition so she must have an unfair advantage. She used to be a man, so it just cannot be right. And so forth. Don't let facts get in the way because your mind is made up. Yeah, that sounds fair. You glance at someone, and suddenly you know more about physiology and endocrinology than someone who has specialised in the field for 30 years. 

 

What is fair is to point out, as I am now doing, that the final verdict is not yet in. Both papers cited above say there is no evidence that transgender athletes have a competitive advantage, but they also say there is not yet enough data to make a final judgement. Not enough research has been done and not enough subjects have been studied. Those of you who have already made up your minds will no doubt seize on this as all the proof you need, but it is just scientists practising good science. Unlike those who already know in their hearts what must be true, and rush to proclaim it from the rooftops, reputable researchers are much more measured in their tones. What they are saying is that they do not yet have enough evidence to draw a final conclusion one way or the other, but everything so far indicates that transgendered athletes do not enjoy a special advantage.

 

 

 

 





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  Reply # 1994331 11-Apr-2018 16:26
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Rikkitic:

 

Here are links to two scientific papers citing extensive research that concludes that there is no evidence that transgender athletes have a competitive advantage. This has been accepted by international competitive sports bodies including the IOC. 

 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-016-0621-y

 

http://www.caaws.ca/e/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Devries_lit_review2.pdf

 

I can find many more papers like this, but I don't see much point since the armchair experts here clearly know so much better.

 

What is unfair is to pass judgements on someone's abilities because you feel it must be so. She has bigger shoulders than the competition so she must have an unfair advantage. She used to be a man, so it just cannot be right. And so forth. Don't let facts get in the way because your mind is made up. Yeah, that sounds fair. You glance at someone, and suddenly you know more about physiology and endocrinology than someone who has specialised in the field for 30 years. 

 

What is fair is to point out, as I am now doing, that the final verdict is not yet in. Both papers cited above say there is no evidence that transgender athletes have a competitive advantage, but they also say there is not yet enough data to make a final judgement. Not enough research has been done and not enough subjects have been studied. Those of you who have already made up your minds will no doubt seize on this as all the proof you need, but it is just scientists practising good science. Unlike those who already know in their hearts what must be true, and rush to proclaim it from the rooftops, reputable researchers are much more measured in their tones. What they are saying is that they do not yet have enough evidence to draw a final conclusion one way or the other, but everything so far indicates that transgendered athletes do not enjoy a special advantage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

He concluded that, while gender verification has made significant advances, there is a lack of physiological performance-related data in transgender people. This is preventing an overall consensus from being made as to whether transgender sport policies are fair or not (i.e. fairness in the absence of advantage).

 

There is no evidence to support they DON'T have a competitive advantage.

 

Having said that, Hubbard was attempting to lift 7KG more than her closest opponent. 

 

 

 

Are you not ALSO an armchair expert in this discussion? You have linked some articles supporting your view (but as you have mentioned it's inconclusive) and someone else supplied evidence to the other side. 

 

 

 

We are a few years from knowing because of the nature of the small numbers of trans athletes. Until then, I am not sure one errs on the side of potentially disadavantaging non trans athletes, or trans ones, since there doesn't seem to be a way currently to not upset someone?

 

An open category where they can compete seems the closest to a fair situation. 

 

 

 

I don't think the IOC including them is a sign of anything at all. 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1994360 11-Apr-2018 16:36
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networkn:

 

I don't think the IOC including them is a sign of anything at all. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the IOC excluded tham, the world will end. As while the reason would be obviously for performance advantage concerns, the backlash would ONLY be about discrimination, and not treating trans as equal. Two totally different subjects. 


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  Reply # 1994366 11-Apr-2018 16:53
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Rikkitic:

 

Here are links to two scientific papers citing extensive research that concludes that there is no evidence that transgender athletes have a competitive advantage. This has been accepted by international competitive sports bodies including the IOC. 

 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-016-0621-y

 

http://www.caaws.ca/e/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Devries_lit_review2.pdf

 

I can find many more papers like this, but I don't see much point since the armchair experts here clearly know so much better.

 

What is unfair is to pass judgements on someone's abilities because you feel it must be so. She has bigger shoulders than the competition so she must have an unfair advantage. She used to be a man, so it just cannot be right. And so forth. Don't let facts get in the way because your mind is made up. Yeah, that sounds fair. You glance at someone, and suddenly you know more about physiology and endocrinology than someone who has specialised in the field for 30 years. 

 

What is fair is to point out, as I am now doing, that the final verdict is not yet in. Both papers cited above say there is no evidence that transgender athletes have a competitive advantage, but they also say there is not yet enough data to make a final judgement. Not enough research has been done and not enough subjects have been studied. Those of you who have already made up your minds will no doubt seize on this as all the proof you need, but it is just scientists practising good science. Unlike those who already know in their hearts what must be true, and rush to proclaim it from the rooftops, reputable researchers are much more measured in their tones. What they are saying is that they do not yet have enough evidence to draw a final conclusion one way or the other, but everything so far indicates that transgendered athletes do not enjoy a special advantage.

 

 

The first one found no research that transgender have an advantage. It did not find that they have no advantage. 

 

The second one basically found there is a lack of research.

 

These are not research. They are reviews of research the authors have found.

 

So... according to these two there's a lack of research to point one way or the other. In the absence of such there's no reason to allow transgender females to compete with females. They are former males with elevated testosterone and masculine bone and muscle development and if they think it's fair to compete with women then they should provide some evidence before they come in and turn the sport into a farce.

 

You continue claiming that people you don't agree with lack facts and simply present feelings. This is crap. It is fact that a nobody male becomes a champion female. It is fact that a transgender female can have a level of testosterone 3 times higher than a female.

 

You refuse to comment on how well Anthony Joshua would get on as a transgender female boxer and I know why. You know it would mean an unfair advantage.

 

 


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  Reply # 1994376 11-Apr-2018 17:16
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Seven pages later and still the same arguments. The appropriate sports controlling bodies will sort this out.





Mike
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  Reply # 1994378 11-Apr-2018 17:18
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Reply to @networkn:

 

If you actually bother to read both publications, and not just the abstracts, you will find that most researchers actually studying this believe that transgender athletes do not enjoy an advantage over CIS competitors. They just say there is not yet enough evidence to prove it either way.

 

Yep, I am an armchair expert. For about the last 30 years I have sat in an armchair editing endocrinology research papers on sex hormones, especially as they apply to transgender individuals, for publication in English-language journals.  

 

The 'evidence' you mention also comes from something of an armchair expert. Professor Alison Heather, the subject of that link, is not an expert in transgender medicine or athletic performance. She is an expert on the effects of sex hormones on certain parts of the body and other functions, but the Stuff quote is speculative and she may be speaking outside her area of expertise. She is also one voice of many, and many do not agree with her. She does believe transgender athletes have an unfair advantage, but she freely admits she doesn't really know. Quote: "We need to do more research before arguing either way." 

 

Maybe some of the people here should follow that advice. Yes, me, too, but I was just responding to the other posts.

 

And with that I am out of here. I have things to do tonight. Have fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 





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  Reply # 1994386 11-Apr-2018 17:45
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kryptonjohn:

 

The first one found no research that transgender have an advantage. It did not find that they have no advantage. 

 

The second one basically found there is a lack of research.

 

These are not research. They are reviews of research the authors have found.

 

 

 

You refuse to comment on how well Anthony Joshua would get on as a transgender female boxer and I know why. You know it would mean an unfair advantage.

 

 

Links to research. Just follow them. There are several citations that it is not believed transgender athletes have an advantage, but not enough research yet to say for certain. But the probability is they don't. But you will see what you want to. 

 

I didn't know I was supposed to comment on Anthony Joshua. What am I supposed to say? I know nothing about boxing.

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





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  Reply # 1994391 11-Apr-2018 18:06
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kryptonjohn:

 

Rikkitic:

 

My sympathies to her. 

 

Back to the issue of fairness, how fair is it to allow a 60 kg female to compete against one weighing 80 kg in any sport,

 

 

There are so many sports where weight is of little importance. Put Lydia Ko next to Ariya Jutanugarn. 

 

But sports where weight matters, such as *weightlifting*, separate the competition into weight grades. It's kind of obvious isn't it.

 

 

or a tall tennis player against a short one, or a long-legged sprinter, etc. etc. Sure, fighters are weighed but this does not extend to all sports. 

 

 

Tennis player John Isner is 2.08m tall but he can't beat any of the top 10 who are all shorter. Some sports will never suit some people. Nobody's trying to make them.

 

 

People are different. Some are bigger than others. Some have longer arms. Some have more determination. If you start trying to even out all the differences, where do you stop? What is the point of competition at all? I doubt the real issue is about transgender athletes. 

 

 

Did someone mention trying to even out all the differences? I must of missed that but should have noticed if someone said such a patently ridiculous thing.

 

You stop where we have always stopped. Where gender is imbalanced, e.g. weightlifting, you separate the sports. If they are not imbalanced, e.g. equestrian, you don't. 

 

If you think transgender women can compete fairly against other women then how about we just have men and women in the same weightlifting completion then? Otherwise where do we stop?

 

 

It probably has more to do with atavistic attitudes towards transgender people.

 

 

Ah, just attack those that don't share your views then, eh? They must all just dislike those people and that's why they don't think they should compete. Nice work.

 

 

 

 

In most but not all sports, strength is of utmost importance. A stronger golfer can hit the ball further. A stronger runner can run faster. A stronger lifter can lift more. A stronger boxer can hit harder and faster. A stronger cyclist can cycle faster and further. A stronger swimmer can swim faster for longer. 

 

Strength, comes from the DNA make up. Taking oestrogen doesn't change the DNA, though it would suppress the effects of other hormones being produced or suppress some hormone production, and doesn't fully reverse things that have been grown over the years.

 

It's like you take a car with V8 turbo engine, change the paint and seats, and give it 91 instead of 98 fuel, change other things ... go racing ...


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  Reply # 1994617 12-Apr-2018 08:53
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Rikkitic:

 

If you actually bother to read both publications, and not just the abstracts, you will find that most researchers actually studying this believe that transgender athletes do not enjoy an advantage over CIS competitors. They just say there is not yet enough evidence to prove it either way.

 

 

And at that point it moves from fact to opinion - expert opinion, but opinion nonetheless.





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  Reply # 1994621 12-Apr-2018 09:00
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And apologies for being repetitive, but a past his prime, 38yo, average male weightlifter suddenly became a champion grade female weightlifter. What kind of suspension of disbelief is required to believe that there was no advantage gained? If Gavin Hubbard who never figured at the top level internationally in his prime can get to be so good as a female 40yo, what would happen if an actual champion level male weightlifter at his peak made the transition? What hope would there be for all the natural female weightlifters?

 

None. The sport would become a farce. 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1994625 12-Apr-2018 09:06
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Rikkitic:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

The first one found no research that transgender have an advantage. It did not find that they have no advantage. 

 

The second one basically found there is a lack of research.

 

These are not research. They are reviews of research the authors have found.

 

 

 

You refuse to comment on how well Anthony Joshua would get on as a transgender female boxer and I know why. You know it would mean an unfair advantage.

 

 

Links to research. Just follow them. There are several citations that it is not believed transgender athletes have an advantage, but not enough research yet to say for certain. But the probability is they don't. But you will see what you want to. 

 

I didn't know I was supposed to comment on Anthony Joshua. What am I supposed to say? I know nothing about boxing.

 

 

 

I believe you are dancing on the head of a pin with "it is not believed transgender athletes have an advantage".  What they are saying is that they have not shown transgender athletes have an advantage. Which is rather empty.

 

You say there are citations? Then which one says that transgender don't have an advantage? Unless that is proven then transgender should not compete against females. They need to prove that it's fair.

 

Otherwise we will continue to see the farce that is a has-been, no... a never-was over-the-hill, former male beating the crap out of elite female athletes in their prime. This is fact, it has just happened in front of our very eyes.

 

 


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  Reply # 1994701 12-Apr-2018 11:16
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I linked to the review paper because the review is specifically about "Do Transitioned Athletes Compete at an Advantage or Disadvantage as compared with Physically Born Men and Women: A review of the Scientific Literature". It references all papers that deal with this issue conveniently in one place. There are not many of them because not a lot of research has yet been done in this area. Rather than trying to sift through all the papers on cross-sex hormones on the Internet, this offers a quick and simple overview of the most relevant research.

 

The different papers, and the review, all conclude that not enough research exists to make a definite judgement about the advantage or otherwise of competing as a transgendered athlete. Some of the research indicates that there may actually be a disadvantage, at least in some specific areas. In several of the papers reviewed, researchers say they have found nothing that indicates an advantage for transgendered athletes. They also say more research is needed.

 

People keep talking about fairness here. Is it fair to allow transgendered athletes to compete at the highest levels when it is not yet certain that they do not have an advantage? Is it fair to exclude them when there is no evidence that they do have an advantage? I still maintain that some people are letting their prejudices rule their judgement. Others disagree. The review paper makes this unambiguous statement under 'key points' : "There is no direct and consistent research to suggest that transgender female individuals (and transgender male individuals) have an athletic advantage in sport and, therefore, the majority of competitive sport policies are discriminatory against this population." That is pretty clear.

 

In the conclusion, it says this: "Within competitive sport, the athletic advantage transgender athletes are perceived to have appears to have been overinterpreted by many sport organisations around the world, which has had a negative effect on the experiences of this population. When the indirect and ambiguous physiological evidence is dissected, it is only transgender female individuals who are perceived to potentially have an advantage as a result of androgenic hormones. Within the literature, it has been questioned as to whether androgenic hormones should be the only marker of athletic advantage or, indeed, if they are even a useful marker of athletic advantage."

 

Believe what you want to. You will anyway. Until more evidence is in, I choose to believe what the majority of researchers say. And with that, I am out of this thread. It is just going in circles now and no-one is going to change their mind.

 

 





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  Reply # 1994737 12-Apr-2018 11:43
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Rikkitic:

 

I still maintain that some people are letting their prejudices rule their judgement.

 

 

That's a very lazy way to dismiss the considered arguments of people you don't agree with.

 

 





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  Reply # 1994763 12-Apr-2018 12:17
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What people's understanding of evidence is not actually what they think evidence is.

 

1. Evidence is not proof.

 

WHen scientists mention evidence, it is not the same as proof. There are many reasons why it is not the same as proof.

 

2. Weak evidence.

 

Everywhere you read, there are levels strength of evidence. If you do MANY very very good studies that either cost the earth or that are impossible to do, then you have very very high level of evidence. But they are impossible to conduct.

 

THe best way to see if transgender weightlifters benefit or not is this. Take every single male on earth, get the best professional coach to train them, get all of them to change genders, see if they decline to female levels, change their genders back, see if they improve. Every single male. Then you will get very very good evidence. Then you must also take every single female on earth train them up and get the female data to compare. Impossible

 

Ok so we know we can't do that. So when they say there are evidence, I want to know what data they get it from. One person? 10 people? Who were they comparing with?

 

The lowest levels of evidence are still called evidence. If an expert says so, it is considered evidence. As one poster puts it, it's termed expert opinion. Is still evidence. But to most people, that's not good enough evidence.

 

GOogle levels of evidence.

 

3. GOod evidence is not proof.

 

You can do some really good research. GOogle funnel plot.

 

Funnel plot theory says, for every good or not good research that shows something, there is an equivalent research out there that should show the exact opposite. So if you are looking at one side of the research, and the theory goes on to state there are many reasons why only one side of the story is given - I won't go into it, then you may be looking at good data, but the conclusions can still be wrong.


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