Formula1 2019

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#2256364 11-Jun-2019 21:20

Vettel could have done something about the whole situation, by not running off the track.
Once you're off, regardless of control or not, you're now going to create a re enterring situation, as you slide back onto the track.
This impeded another driver, and control or not, Hamilton was forced to take evasive action from a driver who was re enterring the track.

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tdgeek

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#2256421 12-Jun-2019 07:18

Jaxson:

Vettel could have done something about the whole situation, by not running off the track.
Once you're off, regardless of control or not, you're now going to create a re enterring situation, as you slide back onto the track.
This impeded another driver, and control or not, Hamilton was forced to take evasive action from a driver who was re enterring the track.

No way. The error is totally irrelevant. If this is the case, it needs to be penalties galore every race. And we need to assume that despite spinning, the driver has control. Clearly the stewards thought he had control, the non steward experts who had enough cameras to watch and re watch the incident and the steering imputs see otherwise. There have been many many cases of the stewards decision being disagreed upon by many. Then they decided to be lenient, they told the drivers that. It seems unsafe re entry is ok on lap 1.

From now on all cases of almost having a collision needs to be penalised. All cases of any touching needs to be penalised. Perhaps a penalty for losing contr0l of the car? Maybe we need 5 acre runoffs everywhere, problem solved. I can watch MotoGP to get my racing fix, thats not santised into whiter than white

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#2256434 12-Jun-2019 07:59

Here is another example. We see drivers cut corners and get no penalty, why is that? Max cut one a few races back, and gained a lot of time, there are others like that that get a ? from the commentators. If you gain time you have gained an advantage, the rule is gaining advantage. These decisions are all over the place, and for some reason, we ignore lap 1 issues.

They may as well put runoffs at every track and sensors to keep cars away from each other. Its not racing, but we all know that in F1. F1 discourages racing

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#2256437 12-Jun-2019 08:06

Jaxson:

Vettel could have done something about the whole situation, by not running off the track.
Once you're off, regardless of control or not, you're now going to create a re enterring situation, as you slide back onto the track.
This impeded another driver, and control or not, Hamilton was forced to take evasive action from a driver who was re enterring the track.

There's no penalties for making a mistake.

The argument is all about whether he had control on the re-entry. Cars generally don't get penalised for a dangerous re-entry if the driver isn't in control.

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#2256438 12-Jun-2019 08:07

tdgeek:

Here is another example. We see drivers cut corners and get no penalty, why is that? Max cut one a few races back, and gained a lot of time, there are others like that that get a ? from the commentators. If you gain time you have gained an advantage, the rule is gaining advantage. These decisions are all over the place, and for some reason, we ignore lap 1 issues.

They may as well put runoffs at every track and sensors to keep cars away from each other. Its not racing, but we all know that in F1. F1 discourages racing

The problem is they cited Suzuka with Max and Kimi as a precedent - where Max drove across tarmac run-off to nerf Kimi wide.

I cannot understand how that is relevant to a car bouncing across grass with the driver struggling to keep it off the walls on both sides.

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#2256443 12-Jun-2019 08:20

GV27:

tdgeek:

Here is another example. We see drivers cut corners and get no penalty, why is that? Max cut one a few races back, and gained a lot of time, there are others like that that get a ? from the commentators. If you gain time you have gained an advantage, the rule is gaining advantage. These decisions are all over the place, and for some reason, we ignore lap 1 issues.

They may as well put runoffs at every track and sensors to keep cars away from each other. Its not racing, but we all know that in F1. F1 discourages racing

The problem is they cited Suzuka with Max and Kimi as a precedent - where Max drove across tarmac run-off to nerf Kimi wide.

I cannot understand how that is relevant to a car bouncing across grass with the driver struggling to keep it off the walls on both sides.

Thats what I thought too. I forget where the Max one I'm refering to was. he was in front, cut the corner and was MILES in front after that. Well, not miles, but maybe a half a second extra. It was a chicane, so visually he gained many metres. No penalty. But he gained an advantage. He gained time and metres. He also gained tyre wear as if his overspeed was corrected that would have loaded his tyres, he avoided that. If he had to slow down to make the chicane, more tyre wear, and then the following car is up his gearbox, allowing an opportunity then, or soon. Max saved many things, but no penalty. We have bollards to counter this, they are not on all chicanes or corner cutting bends. So we allow cheating. There is so much wrong with this sport.

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#2256533 12-Jun-2019 10:26

I don't feel passionately enough one way or the other on this one, and definitely not enough to get into an argument over it.
It's sport, play to the whistle applies. On this day the refs call came down hard on Vettel.

Dude stuffed up, had to cut a corner and nearly took out another racer as he collected it all up afterwards and re entered the track.
Better plan is judge your breaking points accurately, go around the corner properly within track limits, and then go on and win the race.
His driving mistake opened the door for a variety of possible outcomes, and on this day the outcome wasn't favourable.

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#2256541 12-Jun-2019 10:36

Jaxson:

I don't feel passionately enough one way or the other on this one, and definitely not enough to get into an argument over it.
It's sport, play to the whistle applies. On this day the refs call came down hard on Vettel.

Dude stuffed up, had to cut a corner and nearly took out another racer as he collected it all up afterwards and re entered the track.
Better plan is judge your breaking points accurately, go around the corner properly within track limits, and then go on and win the race.
His driving mistake opened the door for a variety of possible outcomes, and on this day the outcome wasn't favourable.

The mistake isn't relevant at all. Thats just an excuse to blame him. The rule is he intentionally blocked Hamilton. Which is a fair rule. Or did he?

I dont have any skin in this either, I dont really care who wins, the titles are long decided this year. But I see stewards decisions and penalties criticised often. And my Max example above. And GV's Max example which has been decreed by the authorities as a precedent which is nowhere near Canada. Oh but lap 1 its a free for all now, as we don't want penalties on lap 1, so ignore safety till lap 2. Its a joke. Its not racing.

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#2256589 12-Jun-2019 11:58

tdgeek:

The mistake isn't relevant at all.

If he had gone around the corner, staying within track limits, this wouldn't be a thing. So it is relevant, at least to some degree.

It's like that last lap pass Max did on Kimi, at the 2017 US Grand Prix, where he momentarily went right off the inside of the track and cut the corner. Great to watch, but the track limits are there for a reason and investigations kick in when you exceed them.

Vettel stuffed up and his car skidded across the grass and ended up back on track in front of another driver (who had stayed on the track), causing them to take evasive manoeuvres to avoid a collision.

It's a wider conversation though, about how much the video ref gets involved in sports, and it's making all sport more clinical and less enjoyable to watch.
In this case Vettel did well to collect his mistake and rejoin the race and hold off Hamilton behind him. That all sounds like good fun racing that would be enjoyable to watch, so sad if the video ref process removes that type of action, in a sport that's already well sanitised from how it used to be (no refuelling, DRS to account for otherwise inability to follow closely etc).

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#2256634 12-Jun-2019 12:11

Jaxson:

tdgeek:

The mistake isn't relevant at all.

If he had gone around the corner, staying within track limits, this wouldn't be a thing. So it is relevant, at least to some degree.

It's like that last lap pass Max did on Kimi, at the 2017 US Grand Prix, where he momentarily went right off the inside of the track and cut the corner. Great to watch, but the track limits are there for a reason and investigations kick in when you exceed them.

Vettel stuffed up and his car skidded across the grass and ended up back on track in front of another driver (who had stayed on the track), causing them to take evasive manoeuvres to avoid a collision.

It's a wider conversation though, about how much the video ref gets involved in sports, and it's making all sport more clinical and less enjoyable to watch.
In this case Vettel did well to collect his mistake and rejoin the race and hold off Hamilton behind him. That all sounds like good fun racing that would be enjoyable to watch, so sad if the video ref process removes that type of action, in a sport that's already well sanitised from how it used to be (no refuelling, DRS to account for otherwise inability to follow closely etc).

Agree to disagree. We dont penalise mistakes. We reward mistakes as mistakes are that the driver is on the edge, what we want to see. If the driver takes that risk and recovers as he did, thats his good fortune. Turn 1 in many GP's would have many penalties most weekends as most touches are the result of putting yourself in a risk situation. Thats ridiculous. Or we install big bumpers or have speed limits and lane detection. Also ridiculous In Supercars there are bumps, skids, same in MotoGP, same in BTCC.

Vettel left the track, recovered, and drove on. Hamilton was behind him as he left the track and recovered. The thing is, if we take this penalty literally I want penalties everywhere to ensure safety. Then it will be a joke, although disgruntlement in F1 over penalties and sanitisation has been going on for a while now, its already a joke, this is why the "show" get discussed so much. Why over taking gets discussed so much. Its ironic that the pinnacle of motorsport is the prime consumer of cotton wool

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#2256639 12-Jun-2019 12:24

Jaxson:

If he had gone around the corner, staying within track limits, this wouldn't be a thing. So it is relevant, at least to some degree.

It's like that last lap pass Max did on Kimi, at the 2017 US Grand Prix, where he momentarily went right off the inside of the track and cut the corner. Great to watch, but the track limits are there for a reason and investigations kick in when you exceed them.

That's not how it works at all - plenty of cars will cut the chicane at Monaco when there are cars following them. Provided you don't do it to maintain a position during an overtake, and you don't do it repeatedly, it's fine.

There are clearly shades of grey with how this is all policed, but suddenly people think these rules are black and white because Vettel is on the receiving end and Hamilton was the beneficiary.

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#2257120 13-Jun-2019 07:08

Nico has it all covered. Fully agree with him. Apparently Vettel had 3s+ on Hamilton at one stage and he could have eeked out the 5s if he concentrated on driving.

Also Lewis is the best driver out there, Ferrari is still hopeless on strategy, and Lewis has more luck than others.

In terms of British vs Italian strategy, I was watching a cycling race in an individual time trial race and the European team completely stuffs up their race winning cyclist's strategy and since then I understood why Ferrari are like that. And in that race in a different stage later, a different European team this time, when another top cyclist had an issues with his bike the team director was miles behind because he stopped to take a piss by the roadside! That cyclist also eventually lost the race.

I completely understand Ferrari now.

Nico's video below

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#2257142 13-Jun-2019 07:43

Batman:

Nico has it all covered. Fully agree with him. Apparently Vettel had 3s+ on Hamilton at one stage and he could have eeked out the 5s if he concentrated on driving.

Also Lewis is the best driver out there, Ferrari is still hopeless on strategy, and Lewis has more luck than others.

In terms of British vs Italian strategy, I was watching a cycling race in an individual time trial race and the European team completely stuffs up their race winning cyclist's strategy and since then I understood why Ferrari are like that. And in that race in a different stage later, a different European team this time, when another top cyclist had an issues with his bike the team director was miles behind because he stopped to take a piss by the roadside! That cyclist also eventually lost the race.

I completely understand Ferrari now.

Another piece of bias, well done, as usual. Some of us are F1 fans.

As Brundle said, he doesn't care who wins, he wants a race.

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#2257181 13-Jun-2019 09:26

Vettel was running low on fuel and Ferrari told him he had to manage it to finish the race, hence why he had to stop eeking out the gap.

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#2257263 13-Jun-2019 10:27

tdgeek:

Another piece of bias, well done, as usual. Some of us are F1 fans.

Keep it friendly mate. It's a forum, we're all entitled to our opinions.

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