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  Reply # 2201276 18-Mar-2019 23:17
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surfisup1000:

 

My 2c worth -- of course the crusaders should change their name, to show respect in the face of new zealands worst mass murder. 

 

'Chiefs' describes a hierarchical ranking as opposed being linked to a particular atrocity. 

 

'Highlanders' is just an old name for a group of people living in scotland. 

 

Neither the chiefs or highlanders fit the same criteria. 

 

 

again the Highlanders in Scotland were for a hundred years part of the first ethnic cleansing on record  , so not such just a name of a group of people. 





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  Reply # 2201278 18-Mar-2019 23:23
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Technofreak:

 

There was no public discussion about the the teams emblems and imageries being offensive prior to last Fridays events yet there is now, just because of the actions of one nutter. I have not heard or aware that the Muslim community found the Crusaders name or emblems to be offensive in anyway. The Crusades were so far back in history they have no direct relevance to today. 

 

If there was a team called the Gladiators complete with their tools of trade as emblems, as Christian I would not be offended. It relates to something way back in history and has no bearing on me today.

 

The public call for a name change is a kneejerk reaction to the actions of one demented zealot. 

 

P.S.

 

You really do need to stop being so supercilious. I don't consider myself to be any better or worse than you, yet you seem to make a habit of having a condescending, conceited and patronising attitude to those you disagree with.

 

 

I have no time of the day for people who refuse to read what others write properly before responding and who insist on running strawmen arguments. Generally, I also consider people who practice such methods of argumentation to be incredibly uneducated, which is frankly quite a disgrace in a first world country with free education up to the conclusion of secondary level.

 

Whether something has a bearing on you isn't the issue that's being debated. The issues (whether you agree with them or not is your choice but to simply dismiss everything out of hand and stick your proverbial fingers into your ear is childish) have been well adverted to you. It's even more insulting when you deign to impute motives/reasons for people supporting the call to consider a name change as though your assertions are facts.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 2201284 18-Mar-2019 23:51
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dejadeadnz

Looks like I forgot to add contemptous and arrogant in my last reply to you.

You really need to look up the meaning of supercilious.




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  Reply # 2201295 19-Mar-2019 00:30
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vexxxboy:

 

surfisup1000:

 

My 2c worth -- of course the crusaders should change their name, to show respect in the face of new zealands worst mass murder. 

 

'Chiefs' describes a hierarchical ranking as opposed being linked to a particular atrocity. 

 

'Highlanders' is just an old name for a group of people living in scotland. 

 

Neither the chiefs or highlanders fit the same criteria. 

 

 

again the Highlanders in Scotland were for a hundred years part of the first ethnic cleansing on record  , so not such just a name of a group of people. 

 

 

My understanding is that the highlanders lived in northern scotland.  They were a people who stood up for their rights, so fought against the english. 

 

I'm unaware of the highlanders waging genocide in particular - do you have a link for that?

 

Regardless, I think the general understanding of the highlanders is that they were not waging genocidal campaigns against other cultures or religions. 

 

The crusades were quite different. 


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  Reply # 2201299 19-Mar-2019 01:05
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surfisup1000:

 

vexxxboy:

 

surfisup1000:

 

My 2c worth -- of course the crusaders should change their name, to show respect in the face of new zealands worst mass murder. 

 

'Chiefs' describes a hierarchical ranking as opposed being linked to a particular atrocity. 

 

'Highlanders' is just an old name for a group of people living in scotland. 

 

Neither the chiefs or highlanders fit the same criteria. 

 

 

again the Highlanders in Scotland were for a hundred years part of the first ethnic cleansing on record  , so not such just a name of a group of people. 

 

 

My understanding is that the highlanders lived in northern scotland.  They were a people who stood up for their rights, so fought against the english. 

 

I'm unaware of the highlanders waging genocide in particular - do you have a link for that?

 

Regardless, I think the general understanding of the highlanders is that they were not waging genocidal campaigns against other cultures or religions. 

 

The crusades were quite different. 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

 

Not genocide, evicting everyone. I have Scottish heritage way back, probably due to this.


epr

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  Reply # 2201312 19-Mar-2019 06:41
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So I think a bunch of non Muslims(assumption here) discussing this is totally pointless but,

The game is boring changing the team name won't change that or make me watch it. We can have opinions but it is not our opinions that matter what matters is the group of people that could be offended by this names opinions. The crusaders leadership are doing the right thing in discussing the name with the community that would be offended by it, if they are happy with the name it will stay if they are not it will most likely change which is the right approach. Including memes about this is really disrespectful given the reason for this discussion I mean 50 people died four days ago ffs have some respect. If the name doesn't change some of the pre game behaviours may. I am guessing that the name probably won't change because the community won't want to bring more hatred on themselves, so if it does change I think it will be the team leadership that does it and I hope they make it clear it was them and not external pressure that caused the change.

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  Reply # 2201314 19-Mar-2019 06:56
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This isn't the first discussion I've seen of the Crusaders name. It was usually included with a wry gag about John Kirwan coaching a team called the 'Blues'. 

 

The difference is a) now this has happened b) in the same city.

 

The Crusaders are doing the right thing; saying they hear the talk and it's something they're going to take under advisement, with the most directly affected people. 

 

Ultimately, it's just a franchise, and they change names/cities all the time. Look at the NRL club mergers, the AFL teams that moved around. Even in Super Rugby, we had had Transvaal, Guateng Lions, The Cats and the Lions. They're all the same team. It's something that happens all the time. 

 

This isn't a club with hundreds of years worth of history; it's a commercial operation and brands change. The Crusaders had a good run; seems like a good time for a change tbh. 


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  Reply # 2201331 19-Mar-2019 07:59
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tdgeek:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

 

Not genocide, evicting everyone. I have Scottish heritage way back, probably due to this.

 

 

That link describes conflict between landowners and the tenants, exasperated by famine and economic collapse.  Not ethnic cleansing. 

 

I still think it is appropriate for the crusaders to change their name.  Arguments over whether other teams should also change their names belongs in a new thread.

 

The crusaders name change debate has parallels to the confederates flag controversy in the USA.... the confederates flag represents racism and slavery, but there seems to be a resurgence in the popularity of this flag in the south.   I remember the flag being used in the Dukes of Hazard but I was a young kid back then. 


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  Reply # 2201337 19-Mar-2019 08:15
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I don't have any issue either way. I would like to know who decided it was an issue though. If there were murmurings from the Muslim community after Friday or had been on and off in the past, then that's different. There are valid points on both sides


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  Reply # 2201500 19-Mar-2019 11:29
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I suggest changing it to the Canterbury Knights, Then the can keep the imagery and the guys on the horses. Plus Knights or portrayed better in history. We still give out Knighthoods today.


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  Reply # 2201504 19-Mar-2019 11:34
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cruxis:

 

I suggest changing it to the Canterbury Knights, Then the can keep the imagery and the guys on the horses. Plus Knights or portrayed better in history. We still give out Knighthoods today.

 

 

I don't mind that.

 

However, the only option is to call it "Canterbury Super Rugby Team" that way almost no-one could be offended.

 

 


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  Reply # 2201507 19-Mar-2019 11:37
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cruxis:

 

I suggest changing it to the Canterbury Knights, Then the can keep the imagery and the guys on the horses. Plus Knights or portrayed better in history. We still give out Knighthoods today.

 

 

Makes a lot of sense. Its like when an actor changes in a TV series, or when you watch a new variant of Star Trek. Its odd. It soon becomes normal again

 

I'll just wait for the 12 example where is not suitable ..... :-)

 

It would be quite cool if they could build in a small piece of imagery that personified inclusivity. Just in a subtle way, to leave a message and remembrance behind the name. Important to keep that subtle though.


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  Reply # 2201513 19-Mar-2019 11:44
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From what I have seen of the Muslim community here, I would not be surprised if they said. "we know its about crusading for good things and not in a religious context, please keep the name" They are very humble, and generous. I'm becoming more ok with whatever result occurs as each day goes by.


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  Reply # 2201520 19-Mar-2019 12:08
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cruxis:

 

I suggest changing it to the Canterbury Knights, Then the can keep the imagery and the guys on the horses. Plus Knights or portrayed better in history. We still give out Knighthoods today.

 

 

Well, He did get a blessing from these chaps so might not be appropriate at all. Given it now has modern day relevance. Crusaders are better... 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

 


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  Reply # 2201521 19-Mar-2019 12:09
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networkn:

 

cruxis:

 

I suggest changing it to the Canterbury Knights, Then the can keep the imagery and the guys on the horses. Plus Knights or portrayed better in history. We still give out Knighthoods today.

 

 

I don't mind that.

 

However, the only option is to call it "Canterbury Super Rugby Team" that way almost no-one could be offended.

 

 

 

 

Team 1, Team 2, Team 3 is better. But no doubt there will be a way to take offence here.. 


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