Formula 1 2021 Season Discussion

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#2836284 21-Dec-2021 11:54

Batman:

if that were true, that they have actually discussed this very scenario, the only thing to do was for Masi to red flag the race. I'm not sure why that wasn't discussed, if they actually went to the length of all that, everybody had the question but nobody thought of the answer.

I believe that Rai crashed on that same corner in practice, I remember reading something where Masi was asked if it happened during the race would he red flag it like he did in practice and he said no.

So the no-red flag may have been pre-determined.

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Batman

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#2836467 21-Dec-2021 17:43

i just recalled something about this season being the worst in terms on consistency by the FIA.

if you recall the second last race Lewis slowed down in one of the 250k blind corners during practice causing someone to nearly crash - i think it was mazepin. then he ignored double waved yellows. both gained no penalty.

if you recall the race prior to that (I think), max was given 5 place grid penalty for ignoring double waved yellow. as it turns out a rogue marshall was waving double yellows on his own accord because there was no double waved yellow indication on max's steering wheel where it should show. no penalty for lewis.

i think every other race you can find some really weird inconsistent ruling.

and then there was the masi dictator rule at the end as icing on the cake to finish off a crazy season.

tdgeek

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#2836493 21-Dec-2021 19:45

Batman:

i just recalled something about this season being the worst in terms on consistency by the FIA.

if you recall the second last race Lewis slowed down in one of the 250k blind corners during practice causing someone to nearly crash - i think it was mazepin. then he ignored double waved yellows. both gained no penalty.

if you recall the race prior to that (I think), max was given 5 place grid penalty for ignoring double waved yellow. as it turns out a rogue marshall was waving double yellows on his own accord because there was no double waved yellow indication on max's steering wheel where it should show. no penalty for lewis.

i think every other race you can find some really weird inconsistent ruling.

and then there was the masi dictator rule at the end as icing on the cake to finish off a crazy season.

I agree. Look at most races. Issues. I guess we could disect the last race but its no different to any other race. Schummy stopping in quali on the last turn before Monaco straight? Rosberg understeering in the turn before the hairpins also at Monaco quali? Rubens pulling aside at Indy so MSC gets a narrow win?

Otherwise we let all these go as racing incidents or give penalties, but on Race 23 it all changes?

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#2836807 22-Dec-2021 11:21

With a bit of planning, there were enough laps to ensure all cars a lap down fell to the back of the snake.
Leaving that decision to right at the end impacted those who weren't give the privilege of jumping ahead.

The second to last race was worse than this one as well. Clearly someone out of their depth in the role, coupled with rules/approaches that have not been applied consistently and lacking support teams to hep moderate these.

End result again is damaging for the sports reputation, with the sole benefit being at least Mercedes didn't win again, but easily could have.

Seriously overdue for a rule/construction style change so 2022 can't come soon enough for me. In 7 years only one team managed to get close, but still miles ahead of the rest of the pack, even sister cars etc. Shows something had to change as the natural balancing out you'd expect to see just did not occur with Mercedes during this period.

There's a good chance we'll see another team (could still be Mercedes) dominant now for a few years, but at least we'll be on a new development path and hopefully will lead to a more condensed pack eventually, which the current development style has failed to do.

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#2836817 22-Dec-2021 11:31

Jaxson:

There's a good chance we'll see another team (could still be Mercedes) dominant now for a few years, but at least we'll be on a new development path and hopefully will lead to a more condensed pack eventually, which the current development style has failed to do.

Hope so. When one team is 2 secs per lap faster that's an age to catch up. Next year the engine dominance will still apply. I'm unsure why Mercedes customer teams are still a long way off the Mercedes team. The 2022 aero changes may allow other teams to close the gap but I'd imagine Mercedes are smart enough to do the new aero as well as anyone else. RBR have always been great at aero and mechanical grip maybe they may get a little closer, and if they can eek out a few more horsepower, closer still. That still leaves four cars that are a huge gap ahead of everyone else

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#2836838 22-Dec-2021 12:15

tdgeek:

Hope so. When one team is 2 secs per lap faster that's an age to catch up. Next year the engine dominance will still apply. I'm unsure why Mercedes customer teams are still a long way off the Mercedes team. The 2022 aero changes may allow other teams to close the gap but I'd imagine Mercedes are smart enough to do the new aero as well as anyone else. RBR have always been great at aero and mechanical grip maybe they may get a little closer, and if they can eek out a few more horsepower, closer still. That still leaves four cars that are a huge gap ahead of everyone else

I wondered that too, but then on fast tracks the likes of Maclaren were quick too, and in the wet it was anyone's game, even the Williams was fast in the wet.

A lot is said of the Merc power units, but their aero and mechanical engineering must be top notch too, just less spoken about. You can see this by how stable that Mercedes is and how little steering corrections Lewis and Bottas had to make compared to other drivers, so perhaps the chassis and rake angle, ,access to wind tunnel etc plays a lager part than HP alone.

Benoire

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#2836840 22-Dec-2021 12:19

Remember that for 2022 all cars will be on a low rake concept to ensure that the ground effect can work. Only two teams used low rake previously, Mercedes and Aston Martin. Aston, and previously Racing Point / Force India, only moved to a low rake in 2019. Mercedes have significant knowledge on how to make a low rake car so they could have some advantage in this.

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#2836841 22-Dec-2021 12:24

they know how to make their aero parts bend in ways that cannot be detected.

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#2836862 22-Dec-2021 13:32

Benoire:

Remember that for 2022 all cars will be on a low rake concept to ensure that the ground effect can work. Only two teams used low rake previously, Mercedes and Aston Martin. Aston, and previously Racing Point / Force India, only moved to a low rake in 2019. Mercedes have significant knowledge on how to make a low rake car so they could have some advantage in this.

That's a very interesting point, I just hope the significantly added ground effect means that other aspects of engineering have more of a bearing in the overall performance of the cars.

This last year may have been something like:

Driver: 15%
Power Unit: 35%
Aero: 25%
Chassis: 15%
Team/Strategy: 10%

Would be great if the regs allowed for a balance that looked more like:

Driver: 25%
Power Unit: 10%
Aero: 15%
Chassis: 25%
Team/strategy: 25%

That would presumably make it easier for teams to compete and to catch up within the course of a season or two, and enough variables be in play to let the minor teams also score decent points for flawless execution. I know some will snort that only a few more tweaks would turn it into Indycar :P

Benoire

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#2836866 22-Dec-2021 13:44

They've, to some extent, standardised the approach now to aero. The turning vanes, complex vortice generation etc. are all gone. This should allowing much closer following, i.e. FIA tests suggest 4% loss of downforce at 20m and 30% at 10m compared to 35% at 20m and a huge amount at 10m distances... I suspect this will level the field somewhat but unfortunately it probably puts the PU in to more of an important position. There will still be aero characteristics that the teams will play around with based upon their driver preferences but I reckon, unless a huge loophole is found ala brawn double defuser in 2009, the cars will run fairly close.

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#2836867 22-Dec-2021 13:44

insane:
This last year may have been something like:

Driver: 15%
Power Unit: 20%
Aero: 20%
Chassis: 5%
Team/Strategy: 20%
FIA 20%

I fixed it for you

Amosnz

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#2836878 22-Dec-2021 14:08

I think Pirelli need to be less conservative on tyre choices too (although going to 18" will change a lot already).

One stop races should be outlawed as it kills too much strategy.

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#2836882 22-Dec-2021 14:18

Amosnz:

I think Pirelli need to be less conservative on tyre choices too (although going to 18" will change a lot already).

One stop races should be outlawed as it kills too much strategy.

Perhaps that it, make teams have to weigh up getting pit stops perfect to take advantage of new tyres that will only last a few laps but give huge huge lap time advantages. You want to see risk be rewarded.

Could be done by opening up the option for some super duper soft tyre being available in the last 10 laps to the 2nd and lower place drivers so there's always a final showdown of sorts. Just imagine seeing a driver on say 40 lap old tyres vs brand new super softs... I swear I saw it happen somewhere recently and it was great! :D

Benoire

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#2836883 22-Dec-2021 14:24

But the computers would simply choose the best strategy and they would all do the same pretty much. The only reason why RB and Mercedes could start on the yellow tires is due to their ability to get through Q2 on them, if Ferarri or McLaren could then they would aswell as we'd have 4 teams pretty much on the same strategy. If you read the recent 'The Dude' piece (Mercedes Mechanic), the computers can basically establish pretty much the aero performance, gear ratios, tyre deg, fuel loads etc. of thier competitors and can react within about 2s to the best strategic options avaialble should a VSC or safety car occur. All the teams run similar software, use machine learning to computationally evaluate the data, and present the best strategic outcomes, therefore any bonus' become fairly negligable as they'd all do the same thing, the only time it doesn't work is if a team needs to do something different because the standard approach won't change anything e.g. RB in the last race, in which case they're doing different things knowing it probably won't work but external factors may come in to play.

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#2836891 22-Dec-2021 14:34

Amosnz:

I think Pirelli need to be less conservative on tyre choices too (although going to 18" will change a lot already).

One stop races should be outlawed as it kills too much strategy.

Agree. A one stop race means no strategy, save fuel then race at the end if you need to. Two pitstops with tyres that wont last 45 laps adds pitstop jeopardy, and as you can race hard as you will have to stop, you can race hard, more action, more mistakes, more passing.

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