Formula 1 2021 Season Discussion

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insane

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#2837097 22-Dec-2021 22:19

tdgeek:
Batman:

i think Brazil is an anomaly because he took a new engine and they ran it at 120%.

I think thats part of Mercedes strategy. That Lewis had engine changed 3 times last year overnight for ONE penalty.This year they took a 5 place grid drop for a new engine. So he will start 5th or 6th. Brilliant strategy. And running their engine at higher wear for more speed, brilliant strategy. Who won Constructors again????

I still don't understand how it's possible to crank out more performance with an engine map, unless they have some ultra leanburn mode they can get away with. They only have a limited weight of fuel to burn, and that weight of fuel has a finite number of joules to deliver.

To get a massive boost your have to take the already insane power unit efficiency and find another, what, 5%?

I did hear Martin Brundle mention they have some crazy water to air charge cooler to increase air density (think Ferrari use a similar design), but again that requires more fuel to get a balanced burn. I'd love to understand what they have done to eek a bit more from it, or is it really just ramping it up a bit more on the straights and coasting more around slow corners?

Batman

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#2837119 23-Dec-2021 06:35

mudguard:

Batman:

the future is still hybrid https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.f1-unveils-new-hybrid-graphic-as-part-of-100-sustainably-fuelled-engine-push.1zUJPvYiaHfsiu041tTOh0.html

F1 has helped Merc in the consumer world. they have a 1.9L engine that puts out over 300kW in the A45 AMG

That's not really new tech. BMWs F1 engine in the eighties had 1500hp from it's 1.5L inline four. It's simply a matter of boost. Have a look at MotoGP. They are around 290BHP per litre. Now that's astonishing.

So the AMG (obviously a road car) is at 163kW per litre.

MotoGP are 216kW per litre. Which must be close to what F1 was pre hybrid.

Though a 20,000rpm redline probably not terribly useful popping down to the dairy.

depends on how long it lasts.

i bet the F1 engine was made to last 1 race (3hrs at max rpm). not sure about motogp - probably 10 hrs at max rpm?

the A45 should last 100,000km at max rpm though we don't know unlike bmw M3s and M4s that are used on the nurburgring

Bung

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#2837126 23-Dec-2021 07:37

The 1500hp BMW engine has been described as a grenade used in qualifying. There's talk of the Merc engine having another 15 - 25hp which wouldn't ordinarily make much difference if they were already using all of the ~1000hp. There's probably more gain from relaxing reliability restrictions. To get another 10km h just by power would probably take 100hp.

tdgeek

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#2837131 23-Dec-2021 07:54

insane:

I still don't understand how it's possible to crank out more performance with an engine map, unless they have some ultra leanburn mode they can get away with. They only have a limited weight of fuel to burn, and that weight of fuel has a finite number of joules to deliver.

To get a massive boost your have to take the already insane power unit efficiency and find another, what, 5%?

I did hear Martin Brundle mention they have some crazy water to air charge cooler to increase air density (think Ferrari use a similar design), but again that requires more fuel to get a balanced burn. I'd love to understand what they have done to eek a bit more from it, or is it really just ramping it up a bit more on the straights and coasting more around slow corners?

I think F1 are rated as 15000 rpm max by the regs, but they normally run at about 12000 rpm due to wear and to last the season given they are limited to a fixed number per season. maybe Merc runs higher and sacrifices wear for more speed? Its well known that their engines degrade faster. And if a new engine is just a 5 place grid penalty, well that's worth it

The design is fascinating. I "think" it was Ferrari that allowed oil to leak into the combustion chamber and the top of the chamber was designed to allow the oil to pre ignite, this allowed a more thorough and complete burn when the actual fuel ignited. Great design, but I "think" they fell foul as the oil was seen as a boost? I.e. getting horsepower from fuel AND the oil. Something like that.

GV27

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#2837132 23-Dec-2021 08:11

tdgeek:

I think F1 are rated as 15000 rpm max by the regs, but they normally run at about 12000 rpm due to wear and to last the season given they are limited to a fixed number per season. maybe Merc runs higher and sacrifices wear for more speed? Its well known that their engines degrade faster. And if a new engine is just a 5 place grid penalty, well that's worth it

The design is fascinating. I "think" it was Ferrari that allowed oil to leak into the combustion chamber and the top of the chamber was designed to allow the oil to pre ignite, this allowed a more thorough and complete burn when the actual fuel ignited. Great design, but I "think" they fell foul as the oil was seen as a boost? I.e. getting horsepower from fuel AND the oil. Something like that.

The fuel is still the limiting factor, but MB clearly had something special up their sleeves for the last part of the season. It's the sort of turn of speed that would have raised eyebrows if it was in, say, a Ferrari.

And I thought the Ferrari issue wasn't so much the oil, it was supposedly a manipulation of the fuel flow measurements. The first thing the FIA changed when the Ferrari stuff was made public was to double-up on the fuel flow sensors. There was some discussion about whether they were using some sort of surge in the fuel feed system to push a bunch through and then very little for a period to bring the average over a measured period down below the threshold. Whatever it is, they agreed to help the FIA improve scrutineering and now they're nowhere.

Benoire

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#2837138 23-Dec-2021 08:19

I think they just ran the engine harder and at higher revs. The engines are designed to quite a specific envelope and max power is achieved at the highest rpms but given they are only supposed to use 3 engines, they run them much lower.. It think when run at max, the merc is very powerful but wears down a lot; they lost their reliability while trying to play catchup to the Ferarri engine that was using additional fuel flow to gain power.

I think around 2016 both the mercs and the ferarris may have been using oil in the combustion chamber, was never confirmed but most have stopped now.

mudguard

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#2837404 23-Dec-2021 14:51

Bung: The 1500hp BMW engine has been described as a grenade used in qualifying. There's talk of the Merc engine having another 15 - 25hp which wouldn't ordinarily make much difference if they were already using all of the ~1000hp. There's probably more gain from relaxing reliability restrictions. To get another 10km h just by power would probably take 100hp.

I'd say most of the grid can probably make 1000bhp with these engines. But again, given the longevity requirements now they probably run them at 75-80% of this.

Yeah there's no question the early turbo cars were unreliable, to say the least, and terrifying to drive as well.

Hatch

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mudguard

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#2837410 23-Dec-2021 14:55

Batman:

depends on how long it lasts.

i bet the F1 engine was made to last 1 race (3hrs at max rpm). not sure about motogp - probably 10 hrs at max rpm?

the A45 should last 100,000km at max rpm though we don't know unlike bmw M3s and M4s that are used on the nurburgring

Oh that's absolutely true. But it shows the potential of ICE engines. As for the A45 lasting that long at max RPMS, no road car short of maybe a Porsche GT3 is designed for anything near WOT all the time.

I'm not saying 300kW from a 1.9L turbo isn't impressive. But how far from that could say the original WRX take? It was 155kW when it first came out I think. Presumably the Merc is running double the boost. But what's cool with modern turbos is how they've minimized lag. That said, take a nice NA car for a drive and it still doesn't matter how good they make turbos!!

While we still can of course.

Batman

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#2837420 23-Dec-2021 15:45

Or supercharged with dsg

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