Formula 1 2022 Season Discussion

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#2980149 10-Oct-2022 13:42

Jaxson:

Gasly situation has two valid parts.

First up, shouldn't be a recovery vehicle on the track until everyone has caught the safety car snake/train, or has returned to the pits if it's a red flag situation.

It's literally been proven sadly before of the importance of this.

Second though, it's poor conditions/visibility and yellow flags, and you're approaching the area of the crash itself that brought out those yellows.

250+km/hr isn't appropriate, it's stupid.

Agree

Jules accident was quite different though, and while that is no reason to excuse yesterday, I feel that its quite disingenuous of many drivers and team managers to use it as an exact replica of yesterday. Jules was found to be driving too fast, he left the track the same as Sutil did, made a potential driver error of locking the fronts that removed any amount of deviation he could apply through the gravel. But there was apparently a fly by wire issue that meant his car accelerated in the run off area

With all the tech in F1 is beggars belief why every year they fix stuff. I expect from now on, that when a car fails, it will be a lengthy recovery even for small issue, even if its near a barrier exit as they will have to wait till every car has passed and every car is slow.

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everettpsycho

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#2980405 10-Oct-2022 20:39

Jaxson:
Gasly situation has two valid parts.

First up, shouldn't be a recovery vehicle on the track until everyone has caught the safety car snake/train, or has returned to the pits if it's a red flag situation.

It's literally been proven sadly before of the importance of this.

This also raises issues with pitting under the safety car as well, the intention of the process is to back the pack up and give the Marshalls time to clear the track as once the last car passes they have a reasonable amount of time to work. If half the field are pitting it spreads them around the track meaning the Marshalls technically shouldn't be on the track until the safety car has all runners behind it. Those who it haven't picked up also tend to drive faster to catch it up before it ends.

The issue yesterday was that truck wasn't just near the track, it was on the racing line at a location where someone binned it in to the wall due to the conditions of the track minutes earlier. Regardless of his speed the location of the truck was dangerous and the Marshalls need to be aware of where all cars are on the track before parking on the racing line.

Had it been a collision in dry weather it may be less of an issue but the nature of how sainz went off does show it's a piece of track you could easily lose control at in the conditions at the time. If an incident was caused with no second party directly involved or obvious cause like losing the engine the Marshalls should expect that the incident could be repeated and act accordingly. If you watch the new York formula e race you can see how many cars can come off a circuit due to the rivers on the track very quickly.

tdgeek

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#2980447 11-Oct-2022 06:38

everettpsycho: This also raises issues with pitting under the safety car as well, the intention of the process is to back the pack up and give the Marshalls time to clear the track as once the last car passes they have a reasonable amount of time to work. If half the field are pitting it spreads them around the track meaning the Marshalls technically shouldn't be on the track until the safety car has all runners behind it. Those who it haven't picked up also tend to drive faster to catch it up before it ends.

The issue yesterday was that truck wasn't just near the track, it was on the racing line at a location where someone binned it in to the wall due to the conditions of the track minutes earlier. Regardless of his speed the location of the truck was dangerous and the Marshalls need to be aware of where all cars are on the track before parking on the racing line.

Had it been a collision in dry weather it may be less of an issue but the nature of how sainz went off does show it's a piece of track you could easily lose control at in the conditions at the time. If an incident was caused with no second party directly involved or obvious cause like losing the engine the Marshalls should expect that the incident could be repeated and act accordingly. If you watch the new York formula e race you can see how many cars can come off a circuit due to the rivers on the track very quickly.

Gasly should expect that the incident could be repeated and act accordingly.

Jules was the same, he was found to be going too fast. Gasly was going too fast. We see marshalls and recovery vehicles most races, its very very common. The high speed Gasly in bad conditions is very very rare. I cannot recall a similar situation where under waved yellows anyone was hoofing it around an incident. Its hard to explain how slow down be prepared to stop can work at 255kph, 5th gear on a wet track when the drivers knows its a recovery situation due to waved yellows.

But from now on we will wait until all cars are passed, and all are crawling, then the recovery can enter the track, but no one is to complain how many laps are lost every race

tdgeek

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#2980452 11-Oct-2022 07:22

RBR and Aston Martin did minor breaches of the cost cap, yet Toto knew it was a major one. Grain of salt applies

Benoire

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#2980479 11-Oct-2022 09:39

Ignoring Toto's posturing, my concern about the cost cap breaches is that even a minor one I think allows up to 5%, which for RB during last year would have been ~upto $7m in additional expenditure. That could easily have been the difference between 1st and 2nd for the drivers championship last season let alone additional funds for this year. I don't think that there should be a minor/major breach position but a single you have breached it and the consequences are severe as would any other form of 'cheating'. Aston's was a procedural error so not considered a breach.

GV27

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#2980480 11-Oct-2022 09:45

Benoire:

Ignoring Toto's posturing, my concern about the cost cap breaches is that even a minor one I think allows up to 5%, which for RB during last year would have been ~upto $7m in additional expenditure. That could easily have been the difference between 1st and 2nd for the drivers championship last season let alone additional funds for this year. I don't think that there should be a minor/major breach position but a single you have breached it and the consequences are severe as would any other form of 'cheating'. Aston's was a procedural error so not considered a breach.

Well the Spygate punishment was 'Both drivers get to keep racing and scoring championship points' so there's not much of a basis to overturn the Drivers Championship results or exclude them from it.

wratterus

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#2980481 11-Oct-2022 09:50

That cap must be unbelievably complex though, what is and isn't a part of it, what historical development comes into it etc etc. IMO it's not surprising there might be some issues for the first year or two.

Benoire

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#2980483 11-Oct-2022 09:52

wratterus:

That cap must be unbelievably complex though, what is and isn't a part of it, what historical development comes into it etc etc. IMO it's not surprising there might be some issues for the first year or two.

I would love to think that it is simple, but this is the FIA/F1 afterall and they love to make things complicated... just look at the red flag rules from the weekend and how they where written.

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#2980492 11-Oct-2022 10:34

Benoire:

wratterus:

That cap must be unbelievably complex though, what is and isn't a part of it, what historical development comes into it etc etc. IMO it's not surprising there might be some issues for the first year or two.

I would love to think that it is simple, but this is the FIA/F1 afterall and they love to make things complicated... just look at the red flag rules from the weekend and how they where written.

dude to reporters - as far as i know i haven't stolen anything, i have no idea how the police knows i stole anything. everything was paid for.

dude to judge - i only stole a minor bit of money from the warehouse, nothing to worry about, sir. thank you and goodbye.

Jaxson

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#2980580 11-Oct-2022 12:35

everettpsycho:

This also raises issues with pitting under the safety car as well, the intention of the process is to back the pack up and give the Marshalls time to clear the track as once the last car passes they have a reasonable amount of time to work. If half the field are pitting it spreads them around the track meaning the Marshalls technically shouldn't be on the track until the safety car has all runners behind it. Those who it haven't picked up also tend to drive faster to catch it up before it ends.

I think a speed cap to re-join safety car snake/train would deal to this. Especially if there is a specific area of incident on the track.
Maybe an ontrack speed limited to return to safety car perhaps.

Reality is you should not be going flat out in extremely poor conditions, right through the zone of the incident, to catch back up to the safety car.
That's not safe regardless of anything being on track. There could just as easily be marshals in the firing line tending to a driver etc that you risk losing it yourself and sliding into.

everettpsycho

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#2980756 11-Oct-2022 20:40

The gasly speeding incident wasn't past the tractor though, and it was moments after the red flag for thrown, it was after the tractor he sped up. Some are suggesting it was because he was mad but we'll probably never know. I don't actually know how fast he was going past the incident and at that point it was a red flag for a matter of seconds so it's not a fair assumption he should be driving under red flag conditions so quickly.

Not condoning that 250km/h under red flag conditions is acceptable and he does deserve to be reprimanded for that, but the reports are getting two distinct incidents mixed together as he drove past the tractor at 250km/h. The marshalls statement clearly stated it was after passing the scene he was driving at those speeds.

It's also getting lost that there was a Marshall on the track as well retrieving the car, it's not only gasly that was at risk here and that could have ended badly. There's no way a Marshall should be between the white lines on an active track unless it's clear for enough time for them to do their work and get clear before the cars come back round. What ultimately seems to have happened is they didn't tell the clean up crew that gasly wasn't part of the pack.

tdgeek

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#2980820 12-Oct-2022 07:19

everettpsycho: The gasly speeding incident wasn't past the tractor though, and it was moments after the red flag for thrown, it was after the tractor he sped up. Some are suggesting it was because he was mad but we'll probably never know. I don't actually know how fast he was going past the incident and at that point it was a red flag for a matter of seconds so it's not a fair assumption he should be driving under red flag conditions so quickly.

Not condoning that 250km/h under red flag conditions is acceptable and he does deserve to be reprimanded for that, but the reports are getting two distinct incidents mixed together as he drove past the tractor at 250km/h. The marshalls statement clearly stated it was after passing the scene he was driving at those speeds.

It's also getting lost that there was a Marshall on the track as well retrieving the car, it's not only gasly that was at risk here and that could have ended badly. There's no way a Marshall should be between the white lines on an active track unless it's clear for enough time for them to do their work and get clear before the cars come back round. What ultimately seems to have happened is they didn't tell the clean up crew that gasly wasn't part of the pack.

IIRC the red flag was as he went past the tractor or close. I doubt he then accelerated from 80k to 250k. Note that when Jules was killed, the tractor was well off the track. Wet. Jules went off where Sutil went off, there was no tractor issue there it was speed in the wet. Also re the red flag, the waved yellows have the same rules , slow down be prepared to stop. How safe is it for a tractor to be on the track (just), in the wet, when cars are going past at 80kph? Very safe IMO. Gasly's penalty is quite harsh, that says something.

I'm expecting tractors and flags will be heavily sanitised from now on

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#2983022 15-Oct-2022 16:10

wratterus:

That cap must be unbelievably complex though, what is and isn't a part of it, what historical development comes into it etc etc. IMO it's not surprising there might be some issues for the first year or two.

still no more information huh. RB saying it's minor and unrelated to car development ... here's a funny video. not for die hard RB fans, relax it's just a comedy

tdgeek

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#2983041 15-Oct-2022 18:12

Batman:

wratterus:

That cap must be unbelievably complex though, what is and isn't a part of it, what historical development comes into it etc etc. IMO it's not surprising there might be some issues for the first year or two.

still no more information huh. RB saying it's minor and unrelated to car development ... here's a funny video. not for die hard RB fans, relax it's just a comedy

FIA said its minor? IIRC it was about salaries, not 100% sure. But if your are a Lewis fan....

Ragnor

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#2983586 17-Oct-2022 00:22

FIA said its minor? IIRC it was about salaries, not 100% sure. But if your are a Lewis fan....

There will always be grey areas in any accounting I'm sure, but it's all speculation until they actually come out with the details.

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