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3211 posts

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  # 1008319 18-Mar-2014 19:11
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Sidestep: In my mind the new timeline - of last voice transmission from the plane occurring BEFORE its communications systems were disabled, changes everything. 
777's had a directive out re cracking under the hull mounted antennas - described as a 'weak spot'in that aircaft. 
A failure there would leave passengers and crew unconscious, but should also have completely disabled ACARS, which transmitted the 'ping' they tracked. 
What if it not only didn't detach completely and also caused a cascade of further problems?
I wonder if Chris Goodfellow's ideas point in the right direction. Swissair Flight 111 was a lower tech aircraft, but this from the Wikipedia article resonates; with "no light by which to see his controls after the displays failed, the pilot was forced to steer the plane blindly; intentionally or not, the plane swerved off course and headed back out into the Atlantic".


This aircraft wasn't affected by that directive as it had a different aerial setup.  This reason for a structural failure has been debunked.  A failure like this should not leave either the crew or passengers unconscious, that's why they have oxygen masks and they run through the pre take off safety briefings.

What other problem are you thinking of if it didn't detach completely?

Swiss Air 111 had a fire and made a mayday, also the screens didn't go blank immediately. There was 14 minutes from the time the crew first noticed fumes till the mayday call. In the intervening time there were several other transmissions. There were no calls from MH 370.




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  # 1008336 18-Mar-2014 19:20
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Sidestep: In my mind the new timeline - of last voice transmission from the plane occurring BEFORE its communications systems were disabled, changes everything. 
777's had a directive out re cracking under the hull mounted antennas - described as a 'weak spot'in that aircaft. 
A failure there would leave passengers and crew unconscious, but should also have completely disabled ACARS, which transmitted the 'ping' they tracked. 
What if it not only didn't detach completely and also caused a cascade of further problems?
I wonder if Chris Goodfellow's ideas point in the right direction. Swissair Flight 111 was a lower tech aircraft, but this from the Wikipedia article resonates; with "no light by which to see his controls after the displays failed, the pilot was forced to steer the plane blindly; intentionally or not, the plane swerved off course and headed back out into the Atlantic".


I posted a link to that airworthiness directive a few pages back.
It (rapid decompression) would explain a turn, and disappearance of ADS-B signal as the plane was put in rapid descent, but then the theory falls apart.
It doesn't explain how subsequent ACARS "pings" were received.
It doesn't explain why ADS-B and TCAS wouldn't have been picked up as the plane flew back over Malaysia.



 
 
 
 


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  # 1008340 18-Mar-2014 19:26
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not sure who Dr Leivesley is other than a British Anti terror expert but .....
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/465126/Missing-Malaysia-Airlines-plane-may-have-been-cyber-hijacked-using-mobile-phone

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  # 1008343 18-Mar-2014 19:29
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Fred99:
Sidestep: In my mind the new timeline - of last voice transmission from the plane occurring BEFORE its communications systems were disabled, changes everything. 
777's had a directive out re cracking under the hull mounted antennas - described as a 'weak spot'in that aircaft. 
A failure there would leave passengers and crew unconscious, but should also have completely disabled ACARS, which transmitted the 'ping' they tracked. 
What if it not only didn't detach completely and also caused a cascade of further problems?
I wonder if Chris Goodfellow's ideas point in the right direction. Swissair Flight 111 was a lower tech aircraft, but this from the Wikipedia article resonates; with "no light by which to see his controls after the displays failed, the pilot was forced to steer the plane blindly; intentionally or not, the plane swerved off course and headed back out into the Atlantic".


I posted a link to that airworthiness directive a few pages back.
It (rapid decompression) would explain a turn, and disappearance of ADS-B signal as the plane was put in rapid descent, but then the theory falls apart.
It doesn't explain how subsequent ACARS "pings" were received.
It doesn't explain why ADS-B and TCAS wouldn't have been picked up as the plane flew back over Malaysia.




ADS-B and TCAS both operate through the transponder.




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  # 1008344 18-Mar-2014 19:29
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I know they were only at 24,000 ft but go here to read out Aloha Airlines explosive depressurisation back in 1988.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243






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  # 1008345 18-Mar-2014 19:34
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turnin: not sure who Dr Leivesley is other than a British Anti terror expert but .....
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/465126/Missing-Malaysia-Airlines-plane-may-have-been-cyber-hijacked-using-mobile-phone


FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, where do these people come from. It cannot happen, there is no way a mobile phone can hijack an aircraft.  We have already discussed this stupid idea.

To say " the hackers could change the plane’s speed, altitude and direction by sending radio signals to its flight management system" is utter BS.






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  # 1008346 18-Mar-2014 19:34
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Technofreak:
Sidestep: In my mind the new timeline - of last voice transmission from the plane occurring BEFORE its communications systems were disabled, changes everything. 
777's had a directive out re cracking under the hull mounted antennas - described as a 'weak spot'in that aircaft. 
A failure there would leave passengers and crew unconscious, but should also have completely disabled ACARS, which transmitted the 'ping' they tracked. 
What if it not only didn't detach completely and also caused a cascade of further problems?
I wonder if Chris Goodfellow's ideas point in the right direction. Swissair Flight 111 was a lower tech aircraft, but this from the Wikipedia article resonates; with "no light by which to see his controls after the displays failed, the pilot was forced to steer the plane blindly; intentionally or not, the plane swerved off course and headed back out into the Atlantic".


This aircraft wasn't affected by that directive as it had a different aerial setup.  This reason for a structural failure has been debunked.  A failure like this should not leave either the crew or passengers unconscious, that's why they have oxygen masks and they run through the pre take off safety briefings.

What other problem are you thinking of if it didn't detach completely?

Swiss Air 111 had a fire and made a mayday, also the screens didn't go blank immediately. There was 14 minutes from the time the crew first noticed fumes till the mayday call. In the intervening time there were several other transmissions. There were no calls from MH 370.


I was more thinking of the continued reception of ACARS pings - assuming the pings would stop if the antenna detatched completely.
Swissair 111 did have a quarter hour radio blackout before the fire.
I remember at the time there was talk this was associated with the fire, though later they decided pilot error..
If it hadn't been corrected and there'd been no radio transmissions made it would have been much more a mystery.

 
 
 
 


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  # 1008356 18-Mar-2014 19:35
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hairy1: 
ADS-B and TCAS both operate through the transponder.


Correct and use aerials that are not associated with the ACARS or satellite aerials




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  # 1008360 18-Mar-2014 19:40
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Technofreak:

This aircraft wasn't affected by that directive as it had a different aerial setup.  This reason for a structural failure has been debunked.  A failure like this should not leave either the crew or passengers unconscious, that's why they have oxygen masks and they run through the pre take off safety briefings.


Are you sure about that?  The directive I read applied to the satcom antenna on all B777 variants.  However it was not an urgent/immediate directive.
35,000 ft with rapid decompression, you don't have very long at all to get oxygen - 30 to 60 seconds maximum.
Now while that might seem to be quite a long time, if the event causing the decompression was traumatic, then people panic - possibly even pilots - especially if they need to take immediate action to maintain control (likely).

FWIW, one of the main reasons for altitude limits on most modern airliners isn't skin integrity per-se (in normal operating conditions), it's because of the seriously limited time of consciousness in case of a particular recognised risk of rapid decompression - uncontained engine failure.  Small "corporate" jets etc with rear mounted engines tend to have pressure bulkheads in the rear, so in theory an uncontained engine failure should not lead to rapid decompression, hence they are certified to fly higher than commercial airliners.


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  # 1008361 18-Mar-2014 19:40
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Fred99:
Sidestep: In my mind the new timeline - of last voice transmission from the plane occurring BEFORE its communications systems were disabled, changes everything. 
777's had a directive out re cracking under the hull mounted antennas - described as a 'weak spot'in that aircaft. 
A failure there would leave passengers and crew unconscious, but should also have completely disabled ACARS, which transmitted the 'ping' they tracked. 
What if it not only didn't detach completely and also caused a cascade of further problems?
I wonder if Chris Goodfellow's ideas point in the right direction. Swissair Flight 111 was a lower tech aircraft, but this from the Wikipedia article resonates; with "no light by which to see his controls after the displays failed, the pilot was forced to steer the plane blindly; intentionally or not, the plane swerved off course and headed back out into the Atlantic".


I posted a link to that airworthiness directive a few pages back.
It (rapid decompression) would explain a turn, and disappearance of ADS-B signal as the plane was put in rapid descent, but then the theory falls apart.
It doesn't explain how subsequent ACARS "pings" were received.
It doesn't explain why ADS-B and TCAS wouldn't have been picked up as the plane flew back over Malaysia.




At least someone on here is thinking things through.




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  # 1008363 18-Mar-2014 19:44
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Technofreak:
hairy1: 
ADS-B and TCAS both operate through the transponder.


Correct and use aerials that are not associated with the ACARS or satellite aerials


Yes - wasn't that what I was saying?
Loss of the satcom antenna shouldn't stop ABS-B, but should stop ACARS pings - the reverse of what appears to have happened, so the airwothiness directive re the satcom antenna is most likely a complete red herring.

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  # 1008365 18-Mar-2014 19:47
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Fred99:
Technofreak:

This aircraft wasn't affected by that directive as it had a different aerial setup.  This reason for a structural failure has been debunked.  A failure like this should not leave either the crew or passengers unconscious, that's why they have oxygen masks and they run through the pre take off safety briefings.


Are you sure about that?  The directive I read applied to the satcom antenna on all B777 variants.  However it was not an urgent/immediate directive.
35,000 ft with rapid decompression, you don't have very long at all to get oxygen - 30 to 60 seconds maximum.
Now while that might seem to be quite a long time, if the event causing the decompression was traumatic, then people panic - possibly even pilots - especially if they need to take immediate action to maintain control (likely).

FWIW, one of the main reasons for altitude limits on most modern airliners isn't skin integrity per-se (in normal operating conditions), it's because of the seriously limited time of consciousness in case of a particular recognised risk of rapid decompression - uncontained engine failure.  Small "corporate" jets etc with rear mounted engines tend to have pressure bulkheads in the rear, so in theory an uncontained engine failure should not lead to rapid decompression, hence they are certified to fly higher than commercial airliners.



Yep, pretty sure, from what I've been reading the MH 370 used two satellite aerials whereas the affected aircraft only had one aerial.

The crew practice putting the masks on in simulated emergencies to ensure they can do it effectively when the need arises.

You are correct re your certified altitude limits.  In fact when one crew member leaves the flight deck on flight above 25,000 (I think) the other crew member has to don the O2 mask.  For flights at higher altitudes (I'm not sure what, but somewhere above 35,000) the crew have to be using supplemental O2 at all times since the time of useful consciousness is so short.




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  # 1008367 18-Mar-2014 19:49
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Fred99:
Technofreak:
hairy1: 
ADS-B and TCAS both operate through the transponder.


Correct and use aerials that are not associated with the ACARS or satellite aerials


Yes - wasn't that what I was saying?
Loss of the satcom antenna shouldn't stop ABS-B, but should stop ACARS pings - the reverse of what appears to have happened, so the airwothiness directive re the satcom antenna is most likely a complete red herring.


Correct, you were.

It was just the way hairy1 posted the reply that I thought it might be interpreted otherwise.

Also agree on the red herring.




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  # 1008370 18-Mar-2014 19:58
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this is all a wild goose chase. the horse has bolted. the horse began to bolt the minute the tracking system(s) were turned off. by the time anyone in Malaysia did anything it was too much too late.

if they airforce had followed the UFO we will know whether that was the plane or not.
if they had alerted all surrounding countries to check their radar we would know where the plane is today.

at the moment no one knows anything because the Malaysians were and probably still are drip feeding the world for a reason unknown.




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  # 1008380 18-Mar-2014 20:23
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Technofreak:
turnin: not sure who Dr Leivesley is other than a British Anti terror expert but .....
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/465126/Missing-Malaysia-Airlines-plane-may-have-been-cyber-hijacked-using-mobile-phone


FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, where do these people come from. It cannot happen, there is no way a mobile phone can hijack an aircraft.  We have already discussed this stupid idea.

To say " the hackers could change the plane’s speed, altitude and direction by sending radio signals to its flight management system" is utter BS.




http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-22107433

http://conference.hitb.org/hitbsecconf2013ams/materials/D1T1%20-%20Hugo%20Teso%20-%20Aircraft%20Hacking%20-%20Practical%20Aero%20Series.pdf


https://www.nruns.com/index.php

best you get upset with this guy then, he's just demonstrated it .

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