MH370 - Call for Search & Rescue Help

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Mad Scientist
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#1011329 23-Mar-2014 13:15

Hang on another sec.

So it flew in the dark of night right across Malaysia-Thailand and quite possibly Indonesia and none of these three countries' air force had any issue with that.

I wonder what would happen if some flies across Australia or new Zealand

webwat

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#1011333 23-Mar-2014 13:29

mattwnz:
Geektastic:
joker97: Vanished

Yes, but where?

No one seems to have a very good idea of where it vanished and if this secret US thing tracks aircraft all the time, where do they say it is/was?

I think some people know more than has been released to the media. But I think it will br a relatively straight forward explaination as to what has happened, especially has the pilots have now been cleared. That is if we will ever find out, as it is possible it will never be found. I think the tracking requirements are woefully inadequate, especially due to the high cost involved in searching. I wonder who is paying for that

Well you are paying for one of the P3 Orions... Sending another one could still happen too.

networkn: Looks like it's been found.

China has satellite images of floating object, 72 feet by 43 feet, in the southern search area for Flight 370, Malaysian official says.

Yeah right. Could be anything until they actually sight it. One of the debris spotted by the civilian jet was identified as a packing pallet, but had to go back to base before the Orion arrived and couldn't find it. Not suprising given the weather down there includes constant 5m waves, but the Orions routinely spot surfacing dolphins so the currents must be just moving debris around.

I reckon a ship needs to be using sonar to find it now. Probably be more ships on the way once debris is confirmed

Time to find a new industry!

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#1011335 23-Mar-2014 13:31

Dratsab:
mattwnz: But I think it will br a relatively straight forward explaination as to what has happened, especially has the pilots have now been cleared.

I agree, it will be a very straightforward explanation. The pilots cannot be "cleared" until flight recording devices have been recovered and analysed.

That is a very big if. Honestly, if they could track that penguin with a satellite tracking device, I struggle to see how this plane couldn't have been tracked, to the point where it crashed. They are introducing 90 day batteries into blackbôxes, but not for several years.

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#1011369 23-Mar-2014 14:22

Dratsab:
mattwnz: But I think it will br a relatively straight forward explaination as to what has happened, especially has the pilots have now been cleared.

I agree, it will be a very straightforward explanation. The pilots cannot be "cleared" until flight recording devices have been recovered and analysed.

Even the CVR might not clear them or have any proof either way.

It only stores the last 2 hours of the cockpit, PA systems and cabin voice.

turnin

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#1011440 23-Mar-2014 17:33

Three important questions arise from this incident in my mind.
I don't understand why in a post 911 world where many parts of our lives are now monitored and recorded and we are searched, sometimes invasively, when boarding a plane, how it is possible for:

1/ People with stolen passports to board a plane on an international flight without a simple database check to interpol. This already occurs in NZ, why not in ALL nations.

2/ A transponder system to be 'turned off', (whilst pilots currently choose to turn transponders off whilst on runways they could just as easily be left on and any system reading the data from them could recognise them as being "landed" Very simple maths could determine if the transponders are within a bounding box set by the same altitude and lat lng of the airport runway.) A system, in this case crucial, for identifying the aircraft and its location on a public international flight should not be able to be disabled, by anyone.

3/ If terrorism is indeed the reason why this plane disappeared, why did all of the near global collection, storage and analysis of electronic communications and metadata, not detect a terrorist attempt prior to the flight. Clearly either the system does not work or terrorists don't plot their attempts via the internet. In which case what is its purpose?

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#1011441 23-Mar-2014 17:38

It's negative I know - but I don't think they're going to find the black boxes for this one.
I'm perplexed by reports of "possible" large pieces of wreckage. That doesn't add up with either suicide by pilot, or an unpiloted plane running out of fuel at altitude.

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#1011450 23-Mar-2014 18:09

turnin: Three important questions arise from this incident in my mind.
I don't understand why in a post 911 world where many parts of our lives are now monitored and recorded and we are searched, sometimes invasively, when boarding a plane, how it is possible for:

1/ People with stolen passports to board a plane on an international flight without a simple database check to interpol. This already occurs in NZ, why not in ALL nations.

2/ A transponder system to be 'turned off', (whilst pilots currently choose to turn transponders off whilst on runways they could just as easily be left on and any system reading the data from them could recognise them as being "landed" Very simple maths could determine if the transponders are within a bounding box set by the same altitude and lat lng of the airport runway.) A system, in this case crucial, for identifying the aircraft and its location on a public international flight should not be able to be disabled, by anyone.

3/ If terrorism is indeed the reason why this plane disappeared, why did all of the near global collection, storage and analysis of electronic communications and metadata, not detect a terrorist attempt prior to the flight. Clearly either the system does not work or terrorists don't plot their attempts via the internet. In which case what is its purpose?

1/ and 3/
There are obviously some pretty serious failures in passport security, but we're being told that the two traveling on stolen passports aren't implicated. I'm also of the opinion that if the usual suspects (Al Qaeda) were to try something of this nature, they'd do it well. I doubt it was a hijacking of that type (either 9/11 or the old style - intending to negotiate some ransom demand).

2/
As I understand it, there were two ADS-B systems. There's a backup if one fails. As a powered system in the plane, then it also needs to be able to be switched off - or it's a potential hazard. What is a problem (IMO) is that the transponder was turned off, the TCAS radar was turned off, the ACARS was turned off (or all systems failed). Now at that time it was transitioning between Malaysian and Vietnamese ATC, but even so, the loss of the ADS-B should have been noticed immediately, as the loss of signal meant it had been turned off or failed (security risk) or the plane had dropped to below about 30,000 feet where signal would be lost (indicative of a serious problem). For goodness sake - you could have been looking at the flight using free software on your PC at home in NZ, and if familiar with that area be aware that something weird had happened. Then the plane flew right over Malaysian airspace. You spend billions on supersonic jet fighters, then don't use them?

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#1011480 23-Mar-2014 20:04

joker97: Hang on another sec.

So it flew in the dark of night right across Malaysia-Thailand and quite possibly Indonesia and none of these three countries' air force had any issue with that.

I wonder what would happen if some flies across Australia or new Zealand

As one US military person said regarding surveillance you pay for what you get and by and large the world does not pay. Probably says it all.

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#1011486 23-Mar-2014 20:15

networkn:
joker97: Hang on a sec. Only if they find the black box. Let's hope they do.

Personally I think there is plenty of evidence that supports the pilot(s) being responsible.

There's plenty of speculation but I would say there is very little evidence of anything at the moment.

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#1011488 23-Mar-2014 20:28

networkn:
joker97: Hang on a sec. Only if they find the black box. Let's hope they do.

Personally I think there is plenty of evidence that supports the pilot(s) being responsible.

If they find the plane in the Indian ocean then I think it can be narrowed down three possibilities

Pilots went there on purpose
Hijacking
Something making them unconscious after turning towards langkawi

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#1011489 23-Mar-2014 20:28

But as yet no one has found anything in the Indian ocean

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#1011492 23-Mar-2014 20:39

Fred99

The TCAS is part of the transponder system (which also provides the ADSB signal). Turning off or a failure of the transponder by default turns off the TCAS.

There is an ADSB blank spot in the area the last radar sinal was received so it wouldn't be seen on the likes of flight radar 24 in that area either.

Turnin

The power output from a transponder transmitter is very high, if there's a fault it needs to be able to be turned off from the cockpit.

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#1011494 23-Mar-2014 20:43

joker97:
networkn:
joker97: Hang on a sec. Only if they find the black box. Let's hope they do.

Personally I think there is plenty of evidence that supports the pilot(s) being responsible.

If they find the plane in the Indian ocean then I think it can be narrowed down three possibilities

Pilots went there on purpose
Hijacking
Something making them unconscious after turning towards langkawi

i agree, for the first two options you need a motive, so far there is no evidence of a motive. That's why I thinks it's option three.

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#1011497 23-Mar-2014 20:49

Let's see if anyone finds anything first of all.

A drop in the ocean indeed. If it's even there.

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#1011500 23-Mar-2014 20:59

joker97: Let's see if anyone finds anything first of all.

A drop in the ocean indeed. If it's even there.

So far all they have seen is a wooden crate and some different coloured straps nearby, which could have also come from a ship. There is probably all sorts of rubbish out there.

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