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  # 1012340 25-Mar-2014 11:31
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networkn: I still think this was likely a potential hijacking or interference with the crew. They really need to lock the cockpit when the plane reaches an altitude of 1000M, which prevents people getting access to the cockpit, removes any choice the pilot has to be co-ocerced into opening the cockpit, and pretty much does away with any hijacking (Since access to the cockpit is the only reason to hijack a plane).


It's locked now from take off actually before take off.  There's the possibility that the crew could be incapacitated and there is no way of anyone getting into the cockpit to resolve the situation, the aircraft just flies until it runs out of fuel, this could even be the case in the MH370 incident.

In case you are suggesting the cockpit door be locked automatically and not be under control of the pilots, the crew have to have control of the cockpit lock.  There are times when they will need to leave the flight deck during flight.




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  # 1012342 25-Mar-2014 11:34
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joker97: i don't think the black box could help more than one bit. they say it only records the last 2 hours. you could tell what happened 2 hours upto point of impact, but might not know why. 

first of all they need to find the box - may never be found!


CVR vs FDR

Voice = 2hr loop (so wont know what happened at time of diversion)
Data = ~20hrs

 
 
 
 


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  # 1012343 25-Mar-2014 11:35
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Technofreak:
networkn: I still think this was likely a potential hijacking or interference with the crew. They really need to lock the cockpit when the plane reaches an altitude of 1000M, which prevents people getting access to the cockpit, removes any choice the pilot has to be co-ocerced into opening the cockpit, and pretty much does away with any hijacking (Since access to the cockpit is the only reason to hijack a plane).


It's locked now from take off actually before take off.  There's the possibility that the crew could be incapacitated and there is no way of anyone getting into the cockpit to resolve the situation, the aircraft just flies until it runs out of fuel, this could even be the case in the MH370 incident.

In case you are suggesting the cockpit door be locked automatically and not be under control of the pilots, the crew have to have control of the cockpit lock.  There are times when they will need to leave the flight deck during flight.


You stopped my next reply :)

Asking if he had flown recently, as even when its lunchtime the door is blocked by a trolley across the isle with 2 staff, 1 facing cabin for alert and the other to hand the food

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  # 1012346 25-Mar-2014 11:39
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joker97: i don't think the black box could help more than one bit. they say it only records the last 2 hours. you could tell what happened 2 hours upto point of impact, but might not know why. 

first of all they need to find the box - may never be found!


Not quite correct.  The cockpit voice recorder records the last 2 hours of cockpit conversations, it runs on a endless 2 hour loop over writing the previous recordings.  The Flight Data Recorder records multitudes of flight paramters, (altutude, heading, airspeed, control deflections, etc etc etc) for that last 25 hours. 

If found the FDR could be very very useful.  Also the CVR might produce something of value as well. It's possible (probably not likely though) that what ever took out the transponder and other equipment also disabled the power supply to the CVR. The CVR would stop recording so the previous two hours would be still there.

Oblivian: You beat me to it. smile




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  # 1012354 25-Mar-2014 11:50
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I wonder if the Black boxes can be changed so they not only record data they upload the data. 




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  # 1012367 25-Mar-2014 12:20
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I agree with the comment about tracking penguin s. If they can track a penguin round the world there is no excuse for difficulty locating a black box eh




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  # 1012368 25-Mar-2014 12:21
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KiwiNZ: I wonder if the Black boxes can be changed so they not only record data they upload the data. 


This already happens for some parameters. It goes via..... you guessed it... ACARS...

ACARS via sat is expensive and as everyone wants a cheap flight these days this data gathering is an expensive way to get ACMS off the aircraft.




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  # 1012373 25-Mar-2014 12:31
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I wonder what would be required to pull a 330 ton plane out of water? Also what do we have that can dive to 7KM ( or even half that) deep?

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  # 1012375 25-Mar-2014 12:32
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Technofreak:
networkn: I still think this was likely a potential hijacking or interference with the crew. They really need to lock the cockpit when the plane reaches an altitude of 1000M, which prevents people getting access to the cockpit, removes any choice the pilot has to be co-ocerced into opening the cockpit, and pretty much does away with any hijacking (Since access to the cockpit is the only reason to hijack a plane).


It's locked now from take off actually before take off.  There's the possibility that the crew could be incapacitated and there is no way of anyone getting into the cockpit to resolve the situation, the aircraft just flies until it runs out of fuel, this could even be the case in the MH370 incident.

In case you are suggesting the cockpit door be locked automatically and not be under control of the pilots, the crew have to have control of the cockpit lock.  There are times when they will need to leave the flight deck during flight.


Yes I was suggesting automatic locking. I understand there are logistical issues, but for example, if the lock required both pilots, or the pilot and 2 ground staff to unlock, that also might help. 


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  # 1012388 25-Mar-2014 12:39
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joker97: I agree with the comment about tracking penguin s. If they can track a penguin round the world there is no excuse for difficulty locating a black box eh


I agree

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  # 1012389 25-Mar-2014 12:45
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networkn: I wonder what would be required to pull a 330 ton plane out of water? Also what do we have that can dive to 7KM ( or even half that) deep?


It will likely be in 250,000 pieces

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  # 1012391 25-Mar-2014 12:46
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networkn: Also what do we have that can dive to 7KM (or even half that) deep?

Good question. Submersibles have gone to the bottom of the Challenger Deep (10911m) but they were purpose built scientific craft. No idea what the US Navy may have in terms of useful craft which may be able to go to such depths.

According to NOAA, pressure, expressed as PSI, increases by 14.5psi for every 10.06 meters of depth, which would mean at 7000 meters (which is a worst case scenario really as ocean depths vary dramatically) the pressure would be around 10089.5psi... Which also poses another question: could the black box itself survive such pressure?

Edit: hyperlink for Challenger Deep added

Further edit: perhaps the Nereus (mentioned in above link) or a similar submersible would be sent to the area if the black box was located.

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  # 1012393 25-Mar-2014 12:52
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hairy1:
KiwiNZ: I wonder if the Black boxes can be changed so they not only record data they upload the data. 


This already happens for some parameters. It goes via..... you guessed it... ACARS...

ACARS via sat is expensive and as everyone wants a cheap flight these days this data gathering is an expensive way to get ACMS off the aircraft.


I was thinking that ACARS or the Blackbox could be used as a "online" backup of the full data collected by the Blackbox. It is still only limited info being sent by ACARS.  Note I really don't know what goes on with this stuff it was just a thing that popped into my mind.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1012397 25-Mar-2014 12:56
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joker97: I agree with the comment about tracking penguin s. If they can track a penguin round the world there is no excuse for difficulty locating a black box eh


However, in my software engineering course we learnt a little about systems design. 

Tracking penguins - this is a non-life threatening application so minimal testing & design parameters required as the consequences of failure are negligible. 

Aircraft systems - vastly more important and frequent use application.  It is more costly to design , build, test and run such systems. 

I don't buy the argument that just because the $2 store can sell it ( or a penguin can use it) then it is fit for life-critical systems. 



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  # 1012412 25-Mar-2014 13:20
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networkn: 
Yes I was suggesting automatic locking. I understand there are logistical issues, but for example, if the lock required both pilots, or the pilot and 2 ground staff to unlock, that also might help. 



Hmmmm, I don't think so.  I very much doubt such an idea will ever get to "fly" forgive the pun.  As an airline pilot I'm fairly certain the pilots won't accept having to be reliant on someone else to be available to unlock the door, cabin crew or even much less ground staff as you suggest.




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