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488 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  # 1005400 14-Mar-2014 10:04
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It is plausible that a hostage situation would involve a gag order from the captors.

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Ultimate Geek

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  # 1005404 14-Mar-2014 10:12
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gundar: It is plausible that a hostage situation would involve a gag order from the captors.


That would have to imply that they managed to breach the cabin doors. Cabin doors these days are reinforced with Kevlar. It would also require the captors to know how to turn off all the equipment. In the event that they did tell the captan it stop communication they can still squark the hijacking code these days without the captors knowing.




Geoff E

 
 
 
 


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Ultimate Geek

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  # 1005411 14-Mar-2014 10:22
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geocom:
gundar: It is plausible that a hostage situation would involve a gag order from the captors.


That would have to imply that they managed to breach the cabin doors. Cabin doors these days are reinforced with Kevlar. It would also require the captors to know how to turn off all the equipment. In the event that they did tell the captan it stop communication they can still squark the hijacking code these days without the captors knowing.


One of the pilots has a record of inviting people into the cabin.

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Ultimate Geek

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  # 1005417 14-Mar-2014 10:43
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gundar:
geocom:
gundar: It is plausible that a hostage situation would involve a gag order from the captors.


That would have to imply that they managed to breach the cabin doors. Cabin doors these days are reinforced with Kevlar. It would also require the captors to know how to turn off all the equipment. In the event that they did tell the captan it stop communication they can still squark the hijacking code these days without the captors knowing.


One of the pilots has a record of inviting people into the cabin.


Ok so going down that path that they managed to get past the doors what is there motive for this. If it is a terrorist act and they took out the pilots then making a plane vanish is not going to do anywhere near as much as say crashing the plane into a building or the ground right in front of people.

If it is a hijacking to seek asylum they are not going to tell them to turn off all the radio gear and turning back towards the place you came from is highly unlikely.

I just cannot see any reason why a hijacker would tell them to turn off there gear and they would fully comply with the request they know that eventually they will crash. They could likely leave something on to tell of the situation happening in the air leave the mic open and work in the words hijacking into natural conversation even then the pilots are likely to stick close to land so they are more likely to be rescued. The only way I can see for all there gear to turn off and still be related to a hijacking is if something sudden happened like a detonation.




Geoff E

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  # 1005427 14-Mar-2014 10:46
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question is - in a detonation and no debris whatsoever?

if that is possible then that's probably what it was.

if that is not possible then the everybody unconcious and the plane flew on autopilot until it ran out of fuel ... does anyone know where the autopilot would take them? presumably not onto land as someone would have seen it on their radar if it flew unresponsive to beijeng




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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Ultimate Geek

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  # 1005432 14-Mar-2014 10:57
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joker97: question is - in a detonation and no debris whatsoever?

if that is possible then that's probably what it was.

if that is not possible then the everybody unconcious and the plane flew on autopilot until it ran out of fuel ... does anyone know where the autopilot would take them? presumably not onto land as someone would have seen it on their radar if it flew unresponsive to beijeng


Believe it or not this sort of thing has happened Lookup Helios Airways Flight 522




Geoff E

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Ultimate Geek

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  # 1005440 14-Mar-2014 11:00
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geocom:
gundar:
geocom:
gundar: It is plausible that a hostage situation would involve a gag order from the captors.


That would have to imply that they managed to breach the cabin doors. Cabin doors these days are reinforced with Kevlar. It would also require the captors to know how to turn off all the equipment. In the event that they did tell the captan it stop communication they can still squark the hijacking code these days without the captors knowing.


One of the pilots has a record of inviting people into the cabin.


Ok so going down that path that they managed to get past the doors what is there motive for this. If it is a terrorist act and they took out the pilots then making a plane vanish is not going to do anywhere near as much as say crashing the plane into a building or the ground right in front of people.

If it is a hijacking to seek asylum they are not going to tell them to turn off all the radio gear and turning back towards the place you came from is highly unlikely.

I just cannot see any reason why a hijacker would tell them to turn off there gear and they would fully comply with the request they know that eventually they will crash. They could likely leave something on to tell of the situation happening in the air leave the mic open and work in the words hijacking into natural conversation even then the pilots are likely to stick close to land so they are more likely to be rescued. The only way I can see for all there gear to turn off and still be related to a hijacking is if something sudden happened like a detonation.


Speculation only:

If nobody knows where the plane/hostages/captors are then there is no chance of a rescue until all demands are met. The hijackers could enter the cabin with sufficent technical knowledge to disable the gear and fly the plane and start with immediately executing the pilots, reducing any chance of a distress call. The demands might be a prisoner swap, for example, in which case, nobody wants that kind of detail public and the best chance of a successful exchange would be to keep the location of the plane and passengers secret until the prisoners can confirm they are safely released.





 
 
 
 


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  # 1005441 14-Mar-2014 11:03
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geocom:
joker97: question is - in a detonation and no debris whatsoever?

if that is possible then that's probably what it was.

if that is not possible then the everybody unconcious and the plane flew on autopilot until it ran out of fuel ... does anyone know where the autopilot would take them? presumably not onto land as someone would have seen it on their radar if it flew unresponsive to beijeng


Believe it or not this sort of thing has happened Lookup Helios Airways Flight 522
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522


they found the plane.

this one just vanished.




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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Ultimate Geek


  # 1005473 14-Mar-2014 11:43
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Flight path before it dropping connection.
Notice that the next day there is a similar connection drop around the same location? Which reconnects just before making land.


http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/mh370/#2d81a27 




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  # 1005512 14-Mar-2014 12:49
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geocom:
joker97: question is - in a detonation and no debris whatsoever?

if that is possible then that's probably what it was.

if that is not possible then the everybody unconcious and the plane flew on autopilot until it ran out of fuel ... does anyone know where the autopilot would take them? presumably not onto land as someone would have seen it on their radar if it flew unresponsive to beijeng


Believe it or not this sort of thing has happened Lookup Helios Airways Flight 522
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522
 




After that one, I have no idea why compulsory low oxygen alarms were not mandated for all commercial planes....





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  # 1005528 14-Mar-2014 12:57
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pbgben: Flight path before it dropping connection.
Notice that the next day there is a similar connection drop around the same location? Which reconnects just before making land.


http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/mh370/#2d81a27


No - there are some dropouts in the S China Sea (NE of Vietnam) - but it seems continuous in the area where the transponder signal from MH370 was lost.

Flightrader commented that in that area, they lose signal at about 30,000 feet or below.
AFAIK there was no transponder signal on Flightradar indicating descent (if there was cabin depressurisation at 35,000 feet, then for sure they need to get the plane down - fast).
ADS-B data is transmitted twice per second.  FR24 doesn't log it all.  At the time leading up to the disappearance, they say it was logging at 30 second intervals.  There's no log showing a descent - it just disappeared.
Perhaps there are other logs (ie not held by FR24) that show a rapid descent - consistent with a depressurisation incident which didn't result in break-up of the plane.

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Ultimate Geek


  # 1005534 14-Mar-2014 13:04
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Fred99:
pbgben: Flight path before it dropping connection.
Notice that the next day there is a similar connection drop around the same location? Which reconnects just before making land.


http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/mh370/#2d81a27


No - there are some dropouts in the S China Sea (NE of Vietnam) - but it seems continuous in the area where the transponder signal from MH370 was lost.

Flightrader commented that in that area, they lose signal at about 30,000 feet or below.
AFAIK there was no transponder signal on Flightradar indicating descent (if there was cabin depressurisation at 35,000 feet, then for sure they need to get the plane down - fast).
ADS-B data is transmitted twice per second.  FR24 doesn't log it all.  At the time leading up to the disappearance, they say it was logging at 30 second intervals.  There's no log showing a descent - it just disappeared.
Perhaps there are other logs (ie not held by FR24) that show a rapid descent - consistent with a depressurisation incident which didn't result in break-up of the plane.


Ahhh, ok.

I find it odd that the transponder would just stop, its a self contained unit right? so even if the plane did have a decompression then it should continue to function, unless it was destroyed by an explosion :(

However even in the event of an explosion is there not multiple communications devices at separate locations on the plane? for example the engine management system was communicating with rolls Royce :/




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Ultimate Geek


  # 1005556 14-Mar-2014 13:15
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I think you can just turn the transponder off.

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  # 1005580 14-Mar-2014 13:30
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pbgben:
Fred99:
pbgben: Flight path before it dropping connection.
Notice that the next day there is a similar connection drop around the same location? Which reconnects just before making land.


http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/mh370/#2d81a27


No - there are some dropouts in the S China Sea (NE of Vietnam) - but it seems continuous in the area where the transponder signal from MH370 was lost.

Flightrader commented that in that area, they lose signal at about 30,000 feet or below.
AFAIK there was no transponder signal on Flightradar indicating descent (if there was cabin depressurisation at 35,000 feet, then for sure they need to get the plane down - fast).
ADS-B data is transmitted twice per second.  FR24 doesn't log it all.  At the time leading up to the disappearance, they say it was logging at 30 second intervals.  There's no log showing a descent - it just disappeared.
Perhaps there are other logs (ie not held by FR24) that show a rapid descent - consistent with a depressurisation incident which didn't result in break-up of the plane.


Ahhh, ok.

I find it odd that the transponder would just stop, its a self contained unit right? so even if the plane did have a decompression then it should continue to function, unless it was destroyed by an explosion :(

However even in the event of an explosion is there not multiple communications devices at separate locations on the plane? for example the engine management system was communicating with rolls Royce :/


Well that's the mystery...
AFAIK there are two ADS-B transponders (there is a backup).  It can be turned off in the cockpit. 
ACARS is a separate system.  It was reported that it was communicating with Rolls Royce by the WSJ - it probably was, but AFAIK the airline maintenance staff have access to that full data (not just engine data - which the engine maker would be interested in)  I don't know if it can be turned off by a flick of a switch.  Flight manuals - which pilots have to study and memorise in order to get certified contain a mind-boggling amount of information, detailed schematic diagrams of every system in the plane  (it makes myth of the common idea that pilots are glorified taxi drivers - it takes a person with remarkable attention to detail and dedication to get to fly commercial airliners).  I'd expect that a pilot could disable it if he felt inclined to do so.  
The ADS-B signal is transmitted line of sight to land stations - hence they lose the signal if it's too far from a land-based receiver. ACARS doesn't lose signal - as it uses satellite communication.
Both would continue to function in case of cabin decompression, so they either got turned off, or the plane was destroyed/disabled.

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  # 1005585 14-Mar-2014 13:39
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Was just reading some more recent news. Again this is just me mining the internet for information, but news.com sources suggest separate communications systems were shut down 10 minutes apart. If this is actually true and not more hearsay, it could tip this mystery more towards hijacking after all.

So far, it is the closest we have come to filling in the holes of each theory. At least from what I know anyway.





Sometimes what you don't get is a blessing in disguise!

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