MH 17 "shot down" all dead

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#1092992 21-Jul-2014 13:39

nakedmolerat:
gzt:
nakedmolerat:3. Russia is NOT USSR. Russia has gone through a lot of change.

Russia is not USSR. Agree. But Russian president is ex-KGB How do you suppose that happened exactly?

So?

I have one simple question for you. Have you been following what happen in Ukraine since Maidan?

edit: +Russian media is extremely state compliant and removes previous articles that contradict new official story. Russian journalists frequently mysteriously intimidated and mysteriously killed with little police interest etc (vs old system of putting in prison and mental asylum)

So is BBC and CNN etc. Prior to 1990, there are 50 different corporation providing western news. Nowadays, there are less than 5. Do you think Western media is much better than Russian media? Remember News of the World? Aidan White clearly states that western medias are politically bias - but apparently this is acceptable/ethical as they are following the universally accepted ideology (read it as western ideology)

Rationalisation has occurred in most business sectors, the Fourth Estate is just one of them. The reduction of News Organisations is due to financial reasons.

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#1092993 21-Jul-2014 13:43

nakedmolerat:
gzt: Russian media is extremely state compliant and removes previous articles that contradict new official story. Russian journalists frequently mysteriously intimidated and mysteriously killed with little police interest etc (vs old system of putting in prison and mental asylum)

So is BBC and CNN etc. Prior to 1990, there are 50 different corporation providing western news. Nowadays, there are less than 5. Do you think Western media is much better than Russian media? Remember News of the World? Aidan White clearly states that western medias are politically bias - but apparently this is acceptable/ethical as they are following the universally accepted ideology (read it as western ideology).

There is notable political bias in many (most?) western news agencies. It brasses me off at times.

That is very different from making stuff up as seems to be frequently done in areas of tight state control of media. Consider this article and this article.

“Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose.” Douglas Adams

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#1092996 21-Jul-2014 13:48

nakedmolerat:
gzt: Russian media is extremely state compliant and removes previous articles that contradict new official story. Russian journalists frequently mysteriously intimidated and mysteriously killed with little police interest etc (vs old system of putting in prison and mental asylum)

So is BBC and CNN etc. Prior to 1990, there are 50 different corporation providing western news. Nowadays, there are less than 5. Do you think Western media is much better than Russian media? Remember News of the World? Aidan White clearly states that western medias are politically bias - but apparently this is acceptable/ethical as they are following the universally accepted ideology (read it as western ideology).

of course there is bias in any piece of writing, be it stuff, or BBC, 3news, etc

but bias and lying is completely different! someone is lying at the moment, it's either Ukraine, or Russia. not cnn. they are not lying, yes they may be biased in siding Ukraine and the way they portray Russia's role. but however on the fence you report THIS one, everything still points to Russia.

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#1092998 21-Jul-2014 13:49

nakedmolerat: I have one simple question for you. Have you been following what happen in Ukraine since Maidan?

Yes.

So is BBC and CNN etc. Prior to 1990, there are 50 different corporation providing western news. Nowadays, there are less than 5. Do you think Western media is much better than Russian media?

For the most part western media and commentators, bloggers etc, are not constrained by the knowledge that their colleagues are intimidated and sometimes killed, and with little police interest.

Remember News of the World? Aidan White clearly states that western medias are politically bias - but apparently this is acceptable/ethical as they are following the universally accepted ideology (read it as western ideology)

Murdoch is legendary for this kind of influence over his publications. Do you have a link to the Aidan White interview you are speaking of?

No I do not think 'western' media is unbiased. Do you think Russian media is unbiased?

Edit: Btw, I removed this sentence from my post on the previous page prior to your response: "Russian media is extremely state compliant and removes previous articles that contradict new official story". This may have been incorrect and referred to social media posts which are usually under control of the poster. This was also quoted by others above.

Edit: And you may have noticed the International Federation of Journalists of which Aiden White is the head will be holding it's annual meeting in Moscow "in order to highlight the recent tensions and pressure facing journalists in the country" (scheduled long before MH17)

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#1093002 21-Jul-2014 13:54

Visit the RT Web site or their FB page it's a lesson on how stupid people can be. Impossible as it may seem it is worse than the comments on Stuff

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#1093004 21-Jul-2014 13:57

nakedmolerat: I for once do not believe that Russia has anything to do with this.

1. There is no tactical benefit/advantage for Russia or Rebel to do this. It was reported in Ukraine news that the Rebel has no capability of shooting down the plane. The rebels did not even have bulletproof vest!

2. I also found it extremely stupid when Obama states in the press conference that he does not know who shot the plane down. Despite not knowing who did it, he quickly blame this on Putin and want him accountable.

3. Russia is NOT USSR. Russia has gone through a lot of change.

4. The president of DPR has been asking again and again in their press conferences to have experts visiting the crash site ASAP. It is amazing that Ukraine govt is extremely slow at getting them to the crash site - it is like they have no interest whatsoever. In the meantime, they have to remove the bodies. They do however take photos etc before removing the bodies (for family identification purpose, preserving the bodies).

5. I will not put the blame on Russia/DPR until the evidence is there for me to see.

6. Western media loves to spew hate and potraying Russia as a bad country. What happen to Iraq? How many civilians are dead there. What about US openly supports those nasty rebels in Syria & Libya?

Transparency International doesn't agree with your sentiment about Russia:

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#1093013 21-Jul-2014 14:08

KiwiNZ: ... The reduction of News Organisations is due to financial reasons.

This is one example why most people here will not have the same understanding as I did.

When I state that 50 corporations become less than 5, it should be obvious what I meant. I guess not.

Anyhow, I am only interested in intellectual discussion and I don't intend to dwell with those who have no current understanding of the unfolding global political events. It takes much more than just googling and 'quoting' statements.

Those who still equate Russia to USSR, are still living in the 80s.

Goodnight, naked-mole-rat.

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#1093033 21-Jul-2014 14:19

nakedmolerat: I for once do not believe that Russia has anything to do with this.

1. There is no tactical benefit/advantage for Russia or Rebel to do this. It was reported in Ukraine news that the Rebel has no capability of shooting down the plane. The rebels did not even have bulletproof vest!

2. I also found it extremely stupid when Obama states in the press conference that he does not know who shot the plane down. Despite not knowing who did it, he quickly blame this on Putin and want him accountable.

3. Russia is NOT USSR. Russia has gone through a lot of change.

4. The president of DPR has been asking again and again in their press conferences to have experts visiting the crash site ASAP. It is amazing that Ukraine govt is extremely slow at getting them to the crash site - it is like they have no interest whatsoever. In the meantime, they have to remove the bodies. They do however take photos etc before removing the bodies (for family identification purpose, preserving the bodies).

5. I will not put the blame on Russia/DPR until the evidence is there for me to see.

6. Western media loves to spew hate and potraying Russia as a bad country. What happen to Iraq? How many civilians are dead there. What about US openly supports those nasty rebels in Syria & Libya?

Addressing your points correspondingly:

1. Correct. It was a stupid mistake by out of control rebels.

2. There is a great deal of evidence that the missile was fired from a Rebel held area. Just like with the disappearance of the previous Malaysian Airlines plane, the spy agencies are trying to disseminate this information without revealing how they obtained it. The Ukrainians are not so worried about that; have you heard the recordings of the conversations of the rebels? The rebel leader retracted his press release minutes after learning that they shot down a civilian plane, on the day of the shooting. Problem is, you can't unwrite facts.

3. What has this got to do with the discussion?

4. Have you not been watching the news? The rebels are preventing free access, leaving the bodies to rot, looting the wreckage & bodies and removing evidence. It's not like the investigators can just drive from A to B due to the 'security'. All the rebels have been told to slow down everything so that they can to prevent free access. Who would listen to the 'president' of the DPR? It's like asking people to trust The Great Leader in North Korea!

5. Do you seriously expect that they will provide you with anything? It's all highly classified.

6. It's sad. But it's reality when a Russian backed militia shoots a passenger jet out of the sky. It's like trying to argue who's in the right or wrong in regards to Palestine and Israel; no one is going to win that argument.

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#1093037 21-Jul-2014 14:24

nakedmolerat:
KiwiNZ: ... The reduction of News Organisations is due to financial reasons.

This is one example why most people here will not have the same understanding as I did.

When I state that 50 corporations become less than 5, it should be obvious what I meant. I guess not.

Anyhow, I am only interested in intellectual discussion and I don't intend to dwell with those who have no current understanding of the unfolding global political events. It takes much more than just googling and 'quoting' statements.

Those who still equate Russia to USSR, are still living in the 80s.

Goodnight, naked-mole-rat.

Not sure why the snippy post.

OK you stated this "Prior to 1990, there are 50 different corporation providing western news. Nowadays, there are less than 5" my civil response to the reduction of news agencies was due to rationalisation of the industry for fiscal reasons.

And as a point to note I am fully aware of what is going on in the world, without Google. OK !!

mckenndk

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#1093063 21-Jul-2014 14:46

Here is the point of view from the other side.

According to Russia Today they are still waiting on the international experts to arrive, only 4 Ukraine experts have come so far and they are getting frustrated that they are not there yet.
http://rt.com/news/174200-international-experts-crash-site/

They also have changed their story for a third time saying they believe they have the black box's and will hand them over only to International Experts as they claim Ukraine will tamper with them otherwise.
http://rt.com/news/174204-ukraine-flight-recorders-plane/

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#1093066 21-Jul-2014 14:50

There is a half truth in that, as I believe no one is in charge of the investigation process. Everyone is in Kiev waiting for someone to take control it seems.

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#1093081 21-Jul-2014 14:54

KiwiNZ:
nakedmolerat:
KiwiNZ: ... The reduction of News Organisations is due to financial reasons.

This is one example why most people here will not have the same understanding as I did.

When I state that 50 corporations become less than 5, it should be obvious what I meant. I guess not.

Anyhow, I am only interested in intellectual discussion and I don't intend to dwell with those who have no current understanding of the unfolding global political events. It takes much more than just googling and 'quoting' statements.

Those who still equate Russia to USSR, are still living in the 80s.

Goodnight, naked-mole-rat.

Not sure why the snippy post.

OK you stated this "Prior to 1990, there are 50 different corporation providing western news. Nowadays, there are less than 5" my civil response to the reduction of news agencies was due to rationalisation of the industry for fiscal reasons.

And as a point to note I am fully aware of what is going on in the world, without Google. OK !!

So you aware that just months ago the Ukraine Prime Minister had to leave his post, he was not voted out, in any other country we would call this a coup ? what do you call it ?

What do you make of the Nuland tapes ?

Why do you think our media has never covered the leaks or the international pretext of the past 8 months?

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#1093087 21-Jul-2014 14:58

mckenndk: Here is the point of view from the other side.

According to Russia Today they are still waiting on the international experts to arrive, only 4 Ukraine experts have come so far and they are getting frustrated that they are not there yet.
http://rt.com/news/174200-international-experts-crash-site/

They also have changed their story for a third time saying they believe they have the black box's and will hand them over only to International Experts as they claim Ukraine will tamper with them otherwise.
http://rt.com/news/174204-ukraine-flight-recorders-plane/

Second article states the UN expert group is awaiting security guarantees from the rebel grouping.

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#1093103 21-Jul-2014 15:21

turnin: So you aware that just months ago the Ukraine Prime Minister had to leave his post, he was not voted out, in any other country we would call this a coup ? what do you call it ?

I believe you are talking about the ex-president rather than a prime minister. The prime minister resigned in protest at the heavy actions of the president. The president subsequently fled in fear of legal prosecution and subsequent to that 73.4% of Ukrainian parliament voted in favor of removing him, which they did. Apparently the Ukrainian constitution states 3/4 and there is obviously some debate if 3/4 was reached. It looks to me a bit closer to events which occur in a functioning democracy than a bit closer to a coup. Still not a good look ignoring your constitution even if it is only a % or two at stake.

turnin: What do you make of the Nuland tapes ?

Yeah it's pretty obvious the USA is trying to heavily influence Ukrainian democracy.

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#1093107 21-Jul-2014 15:26

turnin:
KiwiNZ:
nakedmolerat:
KiwiNZ: ... The reduction of News Organisations is due to financial reasons.

This is one example why most people here will not have the same understanding as I did.

When I state that 50 corporations become less than 5, it should be obvious what I meant. I guess not.

Anyhow, I am only interested in intellectual discussion and I don't intend to dwell with those who have no current understanding of the unfolding global political events. It takes much more than just googling and 'quoting' statements.

Those who still equate Russia to USSR, are still living in the 80s.

Goodnight, naked-mole-rat.

Not sure why the snippy post.

OK you stated this "Prior to 1990, there are 50 different corporation providing western news. Nowadays, there are less than 5" my civil response to the reduction of news agencies was due to rationalisation of the industry for fiscal reasons.

And as a point to note I am fully aware of what is going on in the world, without Google. OK !!

So you aware that just months ago the Ukraine Prime Minister had to leave his post, he was not voted out, in any other country we would call this a coup ? what do you call it ?

What do you make of the Nuland tapes ?

Why do you think our media has never covered the leaks or the international pretext of the past 8 months?

it appears that some people are anti the "west" meddling with affairs of other states, and the media not drawing attention to those. well, that's fair.

US meddles in Ukraine.
NZ meddles in Fiji.
Iran meddles with - who knows (they give weapons to ?ISIS?, Hamas ...)
China meddles with anyone they can Inc Tonga last I heard

but if you (Russia) meddle back by supplying hi tech weapons and start a war disguised with separatists and then shoot down some other people with a secret weapon (not so secret anymore) ...

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