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  Reply # 1132557 20-Sep-2014 09:27
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This reminds me of the lobbying to get Dunedin ratepayers to cough up for that covered stadium that was built there a number of years ago.

"It will be great for the local economy."

Maybe so, but the individual ratepayers don't get a direct financial return for their direct payments for such expensive items.




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  Reply # 1132574 20-Sep-2014 10:18
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Kyanar: I'd rather the taxpayer/ratepayer pick up the tab for building transport links to the airport, to avoid situations like Brisbane where it's $16 by train to the airport or $5-$10 in tolls.  Oh suuuuuuure there's a free way to it as well, but it's sooooo much less convenient.  Ya know?


Have you tried using the train from Mascot (Sydney) to the city.  There's a hefty surcharge for getting on/off at the airport.  It costs less to go past the airport than it does to get off at the airport. I wonder why that is?  The railway is going right past, it's part of the general Sydney city network, and not as if there is a special line to the airport.  I'd suggest the airport company are clipping the ticket.

One reason I heard there is currently no train to Auckland airport is the airport company done't want it as it would impact on some of their other "commercial" activities.

Don't get me started on airport companies, they're a front for legalised extortion.




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  Reply # 1132588 20-Sep-2014 10:39
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Technofreak: Have you tried using the train from Mascot (Sydney) to the city.  There's a hefty surcharge for getting on/off at the airport.  It costs less to go past the airport than it does to get off at the airport. I wonder why that is?  The railway is going right past, it's part of the general Sydney city network, and not as if there is a special line to the airport.  I'd suggest the airport company are clipping the ticket.


Incorrect :-)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_railway_line,_Sydney



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  Reply # 1132591 20-Sep-2014 10:45
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timmmay: Building elsewhere may be more cost effective in the long term. Kapiti's a bit far away, but there's plenty of land in the Porirua area, and it's not far from Wellington. That way more people would get there mostly on motorways too - people from the hutt, kapiti, and once people leave Wellington too. The current airport's way south and has little feeder roads that get clogged easily.

BTR: Seems a stupid idea to me, its always fogged in and when its not its windy as hell. Welcome to New Zealand where you will be blown away.... Literally. 

Why not spend the money on fixing the trains or building a fence around parliament to house the Zoo animals.


Statistically Auckland airport is disrupted due to fog more than Wellington.




I'd suggest there is no land in the Porirua area suitable for any airport.  I don't know where you are thinking of but I've never seen any where anyone would consider building an airport. 

The only suitable area of land up that was that is Paraparaumu and that's been severely compromised with the council allowing housing to encroach around the airport.  As has been suggested the Masterton Wairarapa area is another place where a decent airport could be built, however if you think turbulence is an issue at Wellington the Wairarapa is far far worse. Some of the worst turbulence in New Zealand so far as aircraft are concerned occurs in this region.


So far as fog is concerned, there are much worse places than Wellington for fog.

To the issue of a runway extension at Rongatai (Wellington). Currently the runway doesn't meet internationally recognised standards for RESA or Runway End Safety Areas.  Any extension should be to meet the important RESA issues, but there has been no attempt to do this with the proposal in fact it seems the current proposal might actually reduce the RESA.

Then there is the issue of which end the extension takes place.  The only really useful end is the Lyall Bay end, which would seem to be the most challenging end as it is the most exposed. The hills out towards the Newlands Ridge and beyond severely limit usefulness of any extension into Evans Bay.  

The take off payload will be limited by the climb performance with one failed engine at the most critical point of the take off path and these hills are an issue for almost all aircraft operating out of Wellington. Extending the runway into Evans Bay effectively moves the take off point for a heavily loaded aircraft closer to these hills and makes them even more of an obstacle.

You have to wonder about the whole cost benefit of the exercise.  It doesn't stack up.  Too much cost and not enough people to make it work.




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  Reply # 1132604 20-Sep-2014 10:57
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scottjpalmer:
Technofreak: Have you tried using the train from Mascot (Sydney) to the city.  There's a hefty surcharge for getting on/off at the airport.  It costs less to go past the airport than it does to get off at the airport. I wonder why that is?  The railway is going right past, it's part of the general Sydney city network, and not as if there is a special line to the airport.  I'd suggest the airport company are clipping the ticket.


Incorrect :-)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_railway_line,_Sydney


The line doesn't just serve the airport, take a look at the map. It might have been built as a private partnership but still part of the Sydney railway network.

However my main point was the exorbitant fare to get to the airport. Explain to me why it's cheaper to go to Wolli Creek than the airport.  Wolli Creek is past the airport.  The one way fare from Circular Quay to Wolli Creek is $4.60 and the one way fare from Circular Quay to the Domestic Terminal is $16.40.




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  Reply # 1132609 20-Sep-2014 11:08
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Technofreak:
scottjpalmer:
Technofreak: Have you tried using the train from Mascot (Sydney) to the city.  There's a hefty surcharge for getting on/off at the airport.  It costs less to go past the airport than it does to get off at the airport. I wonder why that is?  The railway is going right past, it's part of the general Sydney city network, and not as if there is a special line to the airport.  I'd suggest the airport company are clipping the ticket.


Incorrect :-)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_railway_line,_Sydney


The line doesn't just serve the airport, take a look at the map. It might have been built as a private partnership but still part of the Sydney railway network.

However my main point was the exorbitant fare to get to the airport. Explain to me why it's cheaper to go to Wolli Creek than the airport.  Wolli Creek is past the airport.  The one way fare from Circular Quay to Wolli Creek is $4.60 and the one way fare from Circular Quay to the Domestic Terminal is $16.40.


Have a look in the article at who owns the stations and who is clipping the ticket from both the passengers and the government.



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  Reply # 1132637 20-Sep-2014 11:56
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scottjpalmer: 

Have a look in the article at who owns the stations and who is clipping the ticket from both the passengers and the government.


I stand corrected on who is conducting the rort in this case. Good old Westpac.

I would be interested to know what sort of lease there is for the land upon which the airport stations are built. That might make interesting reading.




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  Reply # 1132640 20-Sep-2014 12:05
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Technofreak: Then there is the issue of which end the extension takes place.  The only really useful end is the Lyall Bay end, which would seem to be the most challenging end as it is the most exposed. The hills out towards the Newlands Ridge and beyond severely limit usefulness of any extension into Evans Bay.  

The take off payload will be limited by the climb performance with one failed engine at the most critical point of the take off path and these hills are an issue for almost all aircraft operating out of Wellington. Extending the effectively moves the take off point for a heavily loaded aircraft closer to these hills and makes them even more of an obstacle.


That was brought up when the Evans Bay proposal surfaced. There was some claim that it wasn't a problem as the planes could do a climbing turn avoiding Newlands. Then there is a complete swap ends so the point was probably valid. Is the ending of trolley buses partly to avoid having to bridge the roads at the North end?

I recall a previous expansion plan under Don Hulse (sp?) where a landing system that would have been prevented by the Strathmore and Melrose hills was proposed.



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  Reply # 1132663 20-Sep-2014 12:35
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Bung: 
That was brought up when the Evans Bay proposal surfaced. There was some claim that it wasn't a problem as the planes could do a climbing turn avoiding Newlands. Then there is a complete swap ends so the point was probably valid. Is the ending of trolley buses partly to avoid having to bridge the roads at the North end?

I recall a previous expansion plan under Don Hulse (sp?) where a landing system that would have been prevented by the Strathmore and Melrose hills was proposed.


Some aircraft are already utilsing an emergency procedure that avoids the Newlands ridge but i suspect it won't work if the runway effectively moves north into Evans Bay.

No, I don'think the ending of the trolley buses has any impact on the bridging or not of the road.

Sorry, I don't recall the Din Hulse proposal




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  Reply # 1132683 20-Sep-2014 13:06
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I can't remember what extensions it may have included but it also involved shifting the taxiway to the East to give more clearance from the runway, an upgraded landing system and buying up a lot of houses to build hotels and shops.



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  Reply # 1132701 20-Sep-2014 13:31
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Bung: I can't remember what extensions it may have included but it also involved shifting the taxiway to the East to give more clearance from the runway, an upgraded landing system and buying up a lot of houses to build hotels and shops.


Yep, to move the taxiway they would have needed to move Calabar Road and to do that they needed to buy up and move houses that are to the east of the road.  This is part of what I was referring to in an earlier post. I think the hotels and shops were secondary.

The term using the phrases; Silk purse - sows ear; comes to mind.




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  Reply # 1132707 20-Sep-2014 13:41
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Technofreak: Some aircraft are already utilsing an emergency procedure that avoids the Newlands ridge but i suspect it won't work if the runway effectively moves north into Evans Bay.


Am I remembering rightly that there was very nearly a CFIT accident many years ago on the Newlands Ridge with an aircraft on approach? Does anyone know the details of this?



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  Reply # 1132709 20-Sep-2014 13:57
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alasta:
Technofreak: Some aircraft are already utilsing an emergency procedure that avoids the Newlands ridge but i suspect it won't work if the runway effectively moves north into Evans Bay.


Am I remembering rightly that there was very nearly a CFIT accident many years ago on the Newlands Ridge with an aircraft on approach? Does anyone know the details of this?


Yes there was, many years ago. From memory the aircraft had deviated significantly either off track or below descent profile. So not a really problem with the runway location per se.

The approach is less restrictive from a terrain point of view than factoring in an engine failure on departure, which is a factor that has to be allowed for on very departure.  The approach gradient is steeper than the departure gradient requirements.  So it's the departures off runway 34 that are limiting the operations out of Wellington.




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  Reply # 1132717 20-Sep-2014 14:09
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Searching on DC8 and Newlands will give the details.

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  Reply # 1132726 20-Sep-2014 14:33
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Of course Wellington should have an airport that visitors from Asia and The Americas can fly into.

Not everyone wants to go to Auckland.

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