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675 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1212156 11-Jan-2015 22:48
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Technofreak: From what I read Uber were pinged for not charging a fixed fare, a requirement for providing a Private Hire service, which is the licence they hold.

As others have mentioned the authorities have most probably taken a softly softly approach as this hasn't worked they've now brought out the big stick.

I strongly suspect the authorities have been under pressure for some time to take action. I know if I were an operator having to comply with expensive requirements and being fined if I wasn't compliant, I'd be expecting others to be made to comply as well. If the Taxi Federation made a complaint I don't blame them.  They don't make the rules they are like Uber, they have to comply as well.

From where I sit Uber want to have the benefits of running a Taxi service without paying for the privilege. No wonder they are cheaper. There's nothing stopping them from setting up a taxi service. Why haven't they done it?




I would hardly say they are getting the benefits of running a taxi service, If that was the case I would very much like to see all taxi providers forced to follow the same procedure of setting a minimum and maximum price for all transactions prior to even booking.

Uber drivers don't pickup random people who do not have bookings under the uber name, If they do this they are doing so under their on duty taxi companies name not uber which is undeniably legal.

675 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1212157 11-Jan-2015 22:49
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scuwp:
lucky015: To my understanding (which is probably wrong) Uber is fixed variable pricing within a set quote, this quote exists whether the customer checks it priror to booking or not and the price will always fall within the given quote range, This to me is far superior to unpredictable taxi's.


Don't disagree, but the current law requires private hire services (Uber) to agree to a price at the time of hiring, or agree on an hourly rate.  That's the crux of the problem. If the price is variable, then it's not fixed.  Terms are contradictory.   


I would tend to suggest that customers are agreeing to a price at the time of hiring, A price within a set range, Those that do not view the estimate are simply accepting the same price without viewing.

 
 
 
 


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Uber Geek

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  # 1212176 12-Jan-2015 06:21
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I wasn't aware of the requirement in the Passenger service rules that said about metering and the fact private hire vehicles can only operate for a fixed charge,

Looking at these however, I can see a very strong claim for Uber actually being legal.

The rules say you can't use a meter, and must agree on a fixed fee or a fixed hourly rate before the commencement of the service. One could argue this is exactly what Uber are doing.

Before you take an Uber you're quoted a price that includes a fixed price per km as your destination is known before you leave. Is it being metered? There have already been numerous instances around the world where it's been determined that Uber isn't a meter. The app isn't operating as a meter in the traditional sense as the destination is known before the ride is taken, and a quote given. Uber have calculated the route, and know the exact distance of your journey which is very different to a traditional taxi service.

The other component of the Uber fare is a time based charge, which is legal under the law.






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Uber Geek

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  # 1212178 12-Jan-2015 06:43
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sbiddle: I wasn't aware of the requirement in the Passenger service rules that said about metering and the fact private hire vehicles can only operate for a fixed charge,

Looking at these however, I can see a very strong claim for Uber actually being legal.

The rules say you can't use a meter, and must agree on a fixed fee or a fixed hourly rate before the commencement of the service. One could argue this is exactly what Uber are doing.

Before you take an Uber you're quoted a price that includes a fixed price per km as your destination is known before you leave. Is it being metered? There have already been numerous instances around the world where it's been determined that Uber isn't a meter. The app isn't operating as a meter in the traditional sense as the destination is known before the ride is taken, and a quote given. Uber have calculated the route, and know the exact distance of your journey which is very different to a traditional taxi service.

The other component of the Uber fare is a time based charge, which is legal under the law.







The NZ Courts will/should decide the legality.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


348 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1212295 12-Jan-2015 09:59
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KiwiNZ: The NZ Courts will/should decide the legality.


Awesome, give the already over-burdened court system something to figure out which is riduculously petty and has most likely only come about because the Taxi Federation feels threatened...


"No, I'm sorry, we can't hear those three murder cases today, we have to decide whether Uber is legal or not". 



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Uber Geek

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  # 1212296 12-Jan-2015 10:00
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markl:
KiwiNZ: The NZ Courts will/should decide the legality.


Awesome, give the already over-burdened court system something to figure out which is riduculously petty and has most likely only come about because the Taxi Federation feels threatened...


"No, I'm sorry, we can't hear those three murder cases today, we have to decide whether Uber is legal or not". 




better decided in court than on a web Forum :P




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


5545 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 1212315 12-Jan-2015 10:17
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sbiddle: I wasn't aware of the requirement in the Passenger service rules that said about metering and the fact private hire vehicles can only operate for a fixed charge,

Looking at these however, I can see a very strong claim for Uber actually being legal.

The rules say you can't use a meter, and must agree on a fixed fee or a fixed hourly rate before the commencement of the service. One could argue this is exactly what Uber are doing.

Before you take an Uber you're quoted a price that includes a fixed price per km as your destination is known before you leave. Is it being metered? There have already been numerous instances around the world where it's been determined that Uber isn't a meter. The app isn't operating as a meter in the traditional sense as the destination is known before the ride is taken, and a quote given. Uber have calculated the route, and know the exact distance of your journey which is very different to a traditional taxi service.

The other component of the Uber fare is a time based charge, which is legal under the law.






Sbiddle's next blog: Uber ??





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348 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1212317 12-Jan-2015 10:23
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KiwiNZ:
markl:
KiwiNZ: The NZ Courts will/should decide the legality.


Awesome, give the already over-burdened court system something to figure out which is riduculously petty and has most likely only come about because the Taxi Federation feels threatened...


"No, I'm sorry, we can't hear those three murder cases today, we have to decide whether Uber is legal or not". 




better decided in court than on a web Forum :P


...And better yet, decided out of court through mediation between NZTA, the NZ Police and the company in question. 

BTW, noone here is trying to decide whether it is legal or not. Of course we don't have that authority - we're discussing and offering our opinions, that's all. 

5385 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1212332 12-Jan-2015 10:37
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It's a measurement issue.  If you measure for trade, your measurement device needs to be accepted as accurate.  A smart phone is likely to be accepted as an accurate measurement device.  Many taxi's have GPS but the meter still runs off the transmission.

If you are measuring km's/time for the purpose of charging someone, you need to have an approved measurement device.  At a bare minimum you might get away with an odometer or approved hub-meter for distance e.g. a tradie charging km to drive to your house.

Next time you are in a taxi (e.g. an off duty one doing an Uber job) have look at the meter - it will have a wire twist-tie with a plastic seal crimped onto it.  These are fitted when the meter is calibrated.  The seals exist to prevent tampering with the meter e.g. to make it run faster.  These rules are there for the protection of consumers. 

The law is the law, and Uber have way to comply with it- they can: - 
A) Used fixed pricing.
B) Set up Uber NZ as a taxi association and use meters.  Given that many of the Uber drivers have been described above as off duty taxi drivers - this seems logical.






Mike

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Uber Geek

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  # 1212359 12-Jan-2015 10:57
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NZTA rules

6.1(5)    A driver of a private hire vehicle may not use a taxi meter to determine a fare.

 

6.1(6)    A driver of a private hire vehicle may only charge a set fare or an hourly rate agreed with the prospective passenger at the time of booking.

 


It's been ruled in many markets globally that Uber's app is not a meter. If we're to accept it's not a meter (a legal definition of which is a device connected to the vehicle), then Uber are complying with section 6.1(5) of the NZTA regs that say they can't use a meter.

That means the point of debate is section 6.1(6)


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Uber Geek

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  # 1212370 12-Jan-2015 11:17
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sbiddle:

 

NZTA rules

6.1(5)    A driver of a private hire vehicle may not use a taxi meter to determine a fare.

 

6.1(6)    A driver of a private hire vehicle may only charge a set fare or an hourly rate agreed with the prospective passenger at the time of booking.

 


It's been ruled in many markets globally that Uber's app is not a meter. If we're to accept it's not a meter (a legal definition of which is a device connected to the vehicle), then Uber are complying with section 6.1(5) of the NZTA regs that say they can't use a meter.

That means the point of debate is section 6.1(6)



Has it been so ruled in this market ?




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


14222 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 1212381 12-Jan-2015 11:27
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Do Uber drivers have P endorsements?
Do Uber drivers display Photo ID?
Do Uber drivers display their fees both inside and outside the vehicle?
Do Uber drivers have checks including Police to determine character etc?
Do Uber drivers sit and pass language and area knowledge test?
Do Uber drivers keep logbooks?




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


BTR

1515 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1212382 12-Jan-2015 11:28
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Aren't all taxis required by law to have surveillance cameras now? Do the Uber taxi's comply with this law?

Note I am not 100% certain if this is the law or not but I am sure I remember hearing about it and a quick search of the NZTA site hints towards this.

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  # 1212385 12-Jan-2015 11:36
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sbiddle: 6.1(6)    A driver of a private hire vehicle may only charge a set fare or an hourly rate agreed with the prospective passenger at the time of booking.

It seems (from what I've read in this thread) that Uber is charging a set fare for distance, and a time component. Perhaps that's where the issue lies.

348 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1212386 12-Jan-2015 11:37
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KiwiNZ: Do Uber drivers have P endorsements?
Do Uber drivers display Photo ID?
Do Uber drivers display their fees both inside and outside the vehicle?
Do Uber drivers have checks including Police to determine character etc?
Do Uber drivers sit and pass language and area knowledge test?
Do Uber drivers keep logbooks?


Go back over the previous posts in this thread and I think you will find the answer to most of those questions. Honestly, it's pretty clear that you are opposed to Uber, how about telling us why? 

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