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  Reply # 1387712 15-Sep-2015 10:33
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Geektastic: Surely there are avionics and matching ground systems that allow planes to operate in fog?

Plenty of cities in the world get lots of fog and their airports are not closed every five minutes because of it.


Yes Auckland has Cat III ILS which is why most jet services aren't affected.

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  Reply # 1387722 15-Sep-2015 10:37
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sbiddle:
Geektastic: Surely there are avionics and matching ground systems that allow planes to operate in fog?

Plenty of cities in the world get lots of fog and their airports are not closed every five minutes because of it.


Yes Auckland has Cat III ILS which is why most jet services aren't affected.


key word in bold there, most affected services were turbo prop ones

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1387843 15-Sep-2015 12:49
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pdath:
Geektastic: Surely there are avionics and matching ground systems that allow planes to operate in fog?

Plenty of cities in the world get lots of fog and their airports are not closed every five minutes because of it.


Of course there are, but they cost money, so only larger planes and airports have them.  We don't use big jumbo jets for our little domestic hops within NZ.


So what if they cost money? Air NZ makes heaps and is supposed to be delivering service to customers...!





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  Reply # 1387846 15-Sep-2015 12:51
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Geektastic:
pdath:
Geektastic: Surely there are avionics and matching ground systems that allow planes to operate in fog?

Plenty of cities in the world get lots of fog and their airports are not closed every five minutes because of it.


Of course there are, but they cost money, so only larger planes and airports have them.  We don't use big jumbo jets for our little domestic hops within NZ.


So what if they cost money? Air NZ makes heaps and is supposed to be delivering service to customers...!


Air NZ is a publicly listed company and as such its primary goal is to deliver a return to its shareholders.




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  Reply # 1387847 15-Sep-2015 12:52
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It's not AirNZ who spends the money, that is up to Airways or Auckland Airport, who will then charge whatever they want to for the use.

They won't care if your flight costs an extra $200

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  Reply # 1387853 15-Sep-2015 13:03
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Geektastic:
pdath:
Geektastic: Surely there are avionics and matching ground systems that allow planes to operate in fog?

Plenty of cities in the world get lots of fog and their airports are not closed every five minutes because of it.


Of course there are, but they cost money, so only larger planes and airports have them.  We don't use big jumbo jets for our little domestic hops within NZ.


So what if they cost money? Air NZ makes heaps and is supposed to be delivering service to customers...!


where do you plan on fitting them in the small planes? who do you propose certifies them etc etc etc

for ~10 days a year if that its not even worth it

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  Reply # 1387924 15-Sep-2015 15:32
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Every day of the year(-1) you can fly to Nelson on a turbo prop, no security check, just breeze through. One day a year there's fog in Auckland and you wish there was a jet service which could land in fog. Long live the turbo props.

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  Reply # 1387940 15-Sep-2015 15:49
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Geektastic: Surely there are avionics and matching ground systems that allow planes to operate in fog?

Plenty of cities in the world get lots of fog and their airports are not closed every five minutes because of it.


"closed every five minutes " hmmm from memory Auckland is closed circa 5-10 times per year. Wellington less than five and generally any closure is short lived with the exception of the very rare times fog last for longer than a few hours.




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  Reply # 1387990 15-Sep-2015 17:00
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Geektastic: Surely there are avionics and matching ground systems that allow planes to operate in fog?

Plenty of cities in the world get lots of fog and their airports are not closed every five minutes because of it.


Planes operate just fine in fog. It's the bit where the wheels have to touch the ground that causes all the trouble. Instruments will get you very close to the runway and at the right approach angle, but the pilot still needs to be able to see the runway for that last, most important bit.

Otherwise we wouldn't need pilots.




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  Reply # 1388212 15-Sep-2015 21:36
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Linuxluver:
Geektastic: Surely there are avionics and matching ground systems that allow planes to operate in fog?

Plenty of cities in the world get lots of fog and their airports are not closed every five minutes because of it.


Planes operate just fine in fog. It's the bit where the wheels have to touch the ground that causes all the trouble. Instruments will get you very close to the runway and at the right approach angle, but the pilot still needs to be able to see the runway for that last, most important bit.

Otherwise we wouldn't need pilots.


Actually, the plane lands itself. If you watch on YouTube videos of ILS CAT IIIB approaches, you will hear the auto-pilot disengage AFTER the aircraft has landed and has commenced the roll out.

Airways NZ is the company responsible for the installation, operation and maintenance of the equipment at the airport - lighting (inc approach and runway lighting), navigation aids, radar, radios, arrival approach and departure procedures, and the Multilateration (MLAT) ground radar system. Airways then provides these services to the airlines, and charges them accordingly for these services.

In fog, Auckland can still push up to 20-25 movements an hour (a movement is either a departure or an arrival).

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  Reply # 1388280 15-Sep-2015 22:32
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aschteev:
Linuxluver:
Geektastic: Surely there are avionics and matching ground systems that allow planes to operate in fog?

Plenty of cities in the world get lots of fog and their airports are not closed every five minutes because of it.


Planes operate just fine in fog. It's the bit where the wheels have to touch the ground that causes all the trouble. Instruments will get you very close to the runway and at the right approach angle, but the pilot still needs to be able to see the runway for that last, most important bit.

Otherwise we wouldn't need pilots.


Actually, the plane lands itself. If you watch on YouTube videos of ILS CAT IIIB approaches, you will hear the auto-pilot disengage AFTER the aircraft has landed and has commenced the roll out.

Airways NZ is the company responsible for the installation, operation and maintenance of the equipment at the airport - lighting (inc approach and runway lighting), navigation aids, radar, radios, arrival approach and departure procedures, and the Multilateration (MLAT) ground radar system. Airways then provides these services to the airlines, and charges them accordingly for these services.

In fog, Auckland can still push up to 20-25 movements an hour (a movement is either a departure or an arrival).


Yes, a friend of mine is a pilot for BA and he describes his job as "mostly watching out to make sure the machines don't make a mistake these days!"





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  Reply # 1388284 15-Sep-2015 22:42
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Want to change heading or speed.. turn ze dial and let er do the rest :)


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  Reply # 1388747 16-Sep-2015 22:22
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Linuxluver:
Geektastic: Surely there are avionics and matching ground systems that allow planes to operate in fog?

Plenty of cities in the world get lots of fog and their airports are not closed every five minutes because of it.


Planes operate just fine in fog. It's the bit where the wheels have to touch the ground that causes all the trouble. Instruments will get you very close to the runway and at the right approach angle, but the pilot still needs to be able to see the runway for that last, most important bit.

Otherwise we wouldn't need pilots.

Instrument Landing Systems (ILS) that allow aircraft to land autonomously have been around for decades. But there's a high cost both to have an autonomous capable system fitted to an aircraft, and to have the approriate ground systems installed at an airfield.

Generally the airfield costs can only be justified at larger airports with higher air traffic movements, and if you've only got a few airports fitted with high end ILS then as an airline you'd only justify the cost of fitting gear to the aircraft that use those exclusively.

And that's really the limitation, most airports don't have the ILS equipment, and if they did their usage charges would be ridiculously high for the usage it would get.

Finally, whilst it's been possible to land hands-free for a long time the next limitation can be to get the aircraft from the runway to the terminal. In fog thepilot maynot be able to see where to go, being higher off the ground in fog may mean they can't see, a follow-me vehicle, taxiway markings, signboards for turnoffs (which are off to the side of the runway), or even the terminal. But probably most importantly they maynot be able to see their own wingtips or other aircraft on the ground.

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  Reply # 1388814 17-Sep-2015 08:34
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oxnsox:
Linuxluver:
Geektastic: Surely there are avionics and matching ground systems that allow planes to operate in fog?

Plenty of cities in the world get lots of fog and their airports are not closed every five minutes because of it.


Planes operate just fine in fog. It's the bit where the wheels have to touch the ground that causes all the trouble. Instruments will get you very close to the runway and at the right approach angle, but the pilot still needs to be able to see the runway for that last, most important bit.

Otherwise we wouldn't need pilots.

Instrument Landing Systems (ILS) that allow aircraft to land autonomously have been around for decades. But there's a high cost both to have an autonomous capable system fitted to an aircraft, and to have the approriate ground systems installed at an airfield.

Generally the airfield costs can only be justified at larger airports with higher air traffic movements, and if you've only got a few airports fitted with high end ILS then as an airline you'd only justify the cost of fitting gear to the aircraft that use those exclusively.

And that's really the limitation, most airports don't have the ILS equipment, and if they did their usage charges would be ridiculously high for the usage it would get.

Finally, whilst it's been possible to land hands-free for a long time the next limitation can be to get the aircraft from the runway to the terminal. In fog thepilot maynot be able to see where to go, being higher off the ground in fog may mean they can't see, a follow-me vehicle, taxiway markings, signboards for turnoffs (which are off to the side of the runway), or even the terminal. But probably most importantly they maynot be able to see their own wingtips or other aircraft on the ground.


As regards to direction, I suggest some sort of transponders embedded in the runway or on the edges of it could create a system which the plane can follow - like permanent 'waypoints' on a map.





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  Reply # 1388819 17-Sep-2015 09:05
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I am sure all sorts of solutions are available if we had the population numbers to support them and people willing to pay for them.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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