787 Issues

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#1998001 17-Apr-2018 18:15

Oblivian:

Ahhh we were wondering why the national service to CHC was putting 787s on.. thats our answer.

Only $40 to upgrade to Business class too. Originally we thought it was due to the upskilling of the pilots from ex Eagle/ATR that were closing on regionals.

787's are on the AKl-CHC route in part because of the crewing issues Air NZ have present with their turboprop fleet. They've significantly cut back ATR flights on the WLG-CHC route and replaced these with A320's - with some of the A320 capacity coming from pulling 2 x daily R/T A320 trips on the AKL-CHC route. I wrote about this a few weeks ago https://traveltalk.nz/news-opinion/airline/air-new-zealand-announces-new-winter-domestic-main-trunk-changes/

These current Dreamliner issues may see those flights pulled.

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sbiddle

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#1998003 17-Apr-2018 18:24

networkn:

So apparently, now 787's with specific engines are no longer allowed to fly more than 140 minutes from a diversionary airport from the 330KM previously allowed. This pretty much rules out all international flights from NZ on the 10 787's that AirNZ has.

Wondering what they are flying on the route AKL to HNL going forward until the issue is resolved?

I'd imagine this pretty much grounds all 787's for Air NZ.

Interestingly, Hawaiin Airlines also fly 787's this route. I haven't seen any advice on whether they are affected.

It seems like a long list of issues for this plane type. I have flown on them 3 times so far, all pleasant enough experiences, but as a nervous flyer at the best of times, I must admit my faith and therefore willingness to get on a 787 is being somewhat reduced.

I wrote about this on Saturday and updated it this morning on TravelTalk https://traveltalk.nz/news-opinion/air-new-zealand-about-to-be-hit-with-further-dreamliner-issues/

I can also add a few things to that - the ETDO / ETOPS issue affects the Honolulu, Shanghai and possibly Japan. It sounds like IAH and EZE will move to 777 operations at this point.

HNL will continue with the unaffected Dreamliners. The two aircraft with TEN engines fitted are not affected.

Air NZ are going to need additional aircraft, this could mean leasing aircraft with their own crew (likely) or the return of Hi Fly (unlikely).

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#1998008 17-Apr-2018 18:28

djtOtago:

I wonder how easy it would be to replace the Rolls Royce Tent 1000 engines with GEnx engines?

About as easy as putting taking a Ferrari engine and putting it in your Mazda 3. Nothing is impossible, but it's a lot of effort. There are differences in the pylons, engine management computers and the integration. The aircraft would also then need pretty extensive approval. Planes typically don't ever change their engines, which is why you end up with some fleets where airlines have acquired additional planes and have a mix of types.

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#1998009 17-Apr-2018 18:35

https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2018-08127.pdf

This is the actual FAA directive on the issue. I understand about 30% of it..

Tinkerisk

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#1998242 18-Apr-2018 06:56

sbiddle:

djtOtago:

I wonder how easy it would be to replace the Rolls Royce Tent 1000 engines with GEnx engines?

Nothing is impossible, but it's a lot of effort.

Once I had to make it possible but that was before FF for a test bed. Hell of re-wiring and checks.

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#1998245 18-Apr-2018 07:11

When plane engines explode not a 787

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12034594

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Fred99

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#1998276 18-Apr-2018 08:32

sbiddle:

I wrote about this on Saturday and updated it this morning on TravelTalk https://traveltalk.nz/news-opinion/air-new-zealand-about-to-be-hit-with-further-dreamliner-issues/

I can also add a few things to that - the ETDO / ETOPS issue affects the Honolulu, Shanghai and possibly Japan. It sounds like IAH and EZE will move to 777 operations at this point.

HNL will continue with the unaffected Dreamliners. The two aircraft with TEN engines fitted are not affected.

Air NZ are going to need additional aircraft, this could mean leasing aircraft with their own crew (likely) or the return of Hi Fly (unlikely).

That's interesting - thanks.

So Air NZ has 11 787s, 9 presumably originally delivered (prior to 2017) with 2x "Group C" engines - I guess perhaps also a spare - so 18 or 19 of those engines were originally purchased - but Air NZ only has 9 left in operation (plus possibly a spare)?

Now they have the two new 787s (delivered late last year) with 2 x TEN engines. But the remaining 9 787s have an additional 9 "TEN" engines (using one "Group C" and one "TEN" on each plane) when I assume these planes were delivered with 2 x "group C" engines. Was this some "upgrade option" deal already made with RR when negotiating purchase of the original Group C engines, or a quick action by Air NZ / RR reacting to issues already known about the Group C engines?

As I understand it (quite probably wrong) the "TEN" engines only commenced delivery in 2017, so it looks like Air NZ was well "on to it" to be in the position that they're in - worst case they swap some engines around and they've got over half their 787 fleet still ETOPs certified? (plus they can shuffle things around to use 777s) Or will they leave them as is (with one engine of each type) until either a fix is available or they can replace the remaining "Group C" engines with new "TEN" engines?

The whole thing seems like a logistic and legal/accounting nightmare with serious amounts of money involved.

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#1998280 18-Apr-2018 08:38

sbiddle:

djtOtago:

I wonder how easy it would be to replace the Rolls Royce Tent 1000 engines with GEnx engines?

About as easy as putting taking a Ferrari engine and putting it in your Mazda 3. Nothing is impossible, but it's a lot of effort. There are differences in the pylons, engine management computers and the integration. The aircraft would also then need pretty extensive approval. Planes typically don't ever change their engines, which is why you end up with some fleets where airlines have acquired additional planes and have a mix of types.

Well, the Ferrari engine is not designed for the Maxda 3, where as the GE engine is one of the valid engine options for the plane, so not really the same eh.

Fred99

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#1998281 18-Apr-2018 08:43

amiga500:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2018-08127.pdf

This is the actual FAA directive on the issue. I understand about 30% of it..

TLDR version from someone who also only understands a little:

An engine might blow up.
The harder you drive them, the more likely they are to blow up.
If one blows up, you've got to drive the other one harder to keep the plane in the air, so the other engine might blow up.

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#1998285 18-Apr-2018 08:53

Had an interesting discussion about the engine problems with the Trent 1000. I suggested it might put airlines off the 787, but apparently there are just as many A350s being powered by the 'bad batch' of engines. And I believe that is part the problem. There are airlines all over the world, flying both B787 and A350, that are clamouring for the fixed units. I'm not sure where Air New Zealand stands in the pecking order, but I imagine, not that high.

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#1998286 18-Apr-2018 08:59

djtOtago:

I wonder how easy it would be to replace the Rolls Royce Tent 1000 engines with GEnx engines?

Nah - yeah - Plug n' Play.

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Fred99

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#1998288 18-Apr-2018 09:07

Dingbatt: I'm not sure where Air New Zealand stands in the pecking order, but I imagine, not that high.

But from what @sbiddle states, Air NZ was already well on the way to replacing "suspect" engines - and has already replaced half of them - with new engines that were only available last year (unless I've got that all wrong) - so my guess is that they're actually well up in the pecking order.

BTW, the A350 does not use the same engines as the 787, and perhaps Airbus engine issues you're referring to relate to the A320 neo, with some failures of Pratt And Whitney engines

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#1998295 18-Apr-2018 09:32

Dingbatt: Had an interesting discussion about the engine problems with the Trent 1000. I suggested it might put airlines off the 787, but apparently there are just as many A350s being powered by the 'bad batch' of engines. And I believe that is part the problem. There are airlines all over the world, flying both B787 and A350, that are clamouring for the fixed units. I'm not sure where Air New Zealand stands in the pecking order, but I imagine, not that high.

A350's use the Trent XWB. This was developed exclusively for the A350 and is a not the same as the Trent 1000 - not does it suffer from the same issue.

The only engine issue Airbus have is the P&W GTF engine on the A320neo and A321neo aircraft which has caused a huge amount of grief (and delays) for those programs.

sbiddle

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#1998296 18-Apr-2018 09:34

Fred99:

amiga500:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2018-08127.pdf

This is the actual FAA directive on the issue. I understand about 30% of it..

TLDR version from someone who also only understands a little:

An engine might blow up.
The harder you drive them, the more likely they are to blow up.
If one blows up, you've got to drive the other one harder to keep the plane in the air, so the other engine might blow up.

Best summary ever!

noroad

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#1998297 18-Apr-2018 09:35

Fred99:

BTW, the A350 does not use the same engines as the 787, and perhaps Airbus engine issues you're referring to relate to the A320 neo, with some failures of Pratt And Whitney engines

The A330 Neo has been badly affected as well

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-23/rolls-royce-s-787-engine-snag-is-said-to-extend-to-airbus-a330

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