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  Reply # 2144020 12-Dec-2018 11:54
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tehgerbil:

 

...

 

The past 3 Xmas periods AirNZ have asked staff to work over the busiest days for free. That’s right, for nothing. To work and get paid zero for it. Your time was volunteering to help the company under the auspices of helping colleagues out during busy periods and gaining experience . Again, working for NOTHING. Taking away any overtime rates for cleaning staff,counter staff etc. by working for no pay. This is the company they are. Asking us to work for nothing. Mis-leading with averages not using the median. Pretending to be negotiating but no-showing and showing late when they do. They have appeared on time when they said they would but it’s been more common for them to not show or be late than be punctual. I used to sing AirNZs’ praises. I’m more cautious now. [source]

 

 

Funny story, Australian media are up in arms about Qantas doing this exact same thing this year. The public are... not supportive of the company. If Air NZ is in fact doing this, and I have no reason to believe they aren't, then it might be in the union's best interest to make public any official communication the company sends around requesting this volunteer work as it may well swing public support toward them.

 

itxtme:

 

I have seen a lot of people saying this, and I get the feeling that these workers know that they are not nurses or teachers.  They arent going for public opinion, they are going for disruption to get what they want.

 

From the very little that has been made public around what each side wants, I personally can understand why they may not want to change there penal rates.  A one off payment off $6000 odd dollars is a drop in the bucket to the savings [for the airline] and loss in income [for the staff] over the next 10 years.  In reality that 6k is probably the equivalent to a years worth of those penal rates .  Who in there right mind would give that up for 6k and 2% (inflation is 1.9% currently) pay rise!?  Especially on the back of the good profits the airline continues to make..

 

They may not be going for public opinion, but if they force the Government to intervene it would be in their best interests to have the public on their side, as the Government is quite likely to drop down on the side of the fence that has popular support.

 

Look at what happened when Joyce grounded the entire Qantas domestic and international fleet in response to a strike notice from Qantas ground crew. The airline stood to lose $20m a day, and the government had to step in to terminate both the strike and lockout. Ended up the union lost big time, because Fair Work simply rejected all their key demands.


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  Reply # 2144070 12-Dec-2018 13:02
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I've always wondered why Air NZ had two major B787 engine incidents & not just one.   After the first engine almost destroyed itself you would have thought it would be prudent to ground the other ones until an inspection had been made on all the other 787s and engines.   It's things like that & now the wish to save money with volunteer labour that makes me wonder about management of these two airlines.(Air NZ and Qantas)

 

Maybe there is another meaning for ETOPS  Engines Turn Or Profits Sink.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 2144086 12-Dec-2018 13:30
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Booked and paid for flights months ago on domestic flight on Dec 21st for 2 adults + 3 kids, so following this story with great interest. Xmas could be different this year!

 

Obviously can't add any insurance on now, but I thought I may have been covered by complimentary credit card insurance however just checked and that only covers international travel.

 

Hmmmm... will have to wait and see what eventuates...

 

 


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  Reply # 2144095 12-Dec-2018 13:44
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mattyb:

 

Obviously can't add any insurance on now, but I thought I may have been covered by complimentary credit card insurance however just checked and that only covers international travel.

 

 

I don't think having insurance would be much help, there are only a finite number of flights (and therefore seats). If you are travelling on a regional service, insurance is not going to get you there any quicker. And if you are on a service that Jetstar service, they would be pretty full too. The exception would be if you are away from your home city, where insurance will put you up in a hotel/motel (less excess of course). I imagine most people flying the week before Xmas are flying from their home city to whānau in other places.


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  Reply # 2144136 12-Dec-2018 13:56
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amiga500:

 

I've always wondered why Air NZ had two major B787 engine incidents & not just one.   After the first engine almost destroyed itself you would have thought it would be prudent to ground the other ones until an inspection had been made on all the other 787s and engines.  

 

 

A check would have detected nothing. Have you actually read the full report into the failures and understand the risk migitation procedures that were already in place?

 

 

Due to the large number of engines that need modification, the engine manufacturer instituted a risk mitigation programme called the Corrosion Fatigue Lifing (CFL) model. The model predicted the crack propagation in blades and the time (in engine cycles12) when the relevant engines had to be removed from the aeroplane for modification.

 

.....

 

IPT blade release is a known problem with the Trent 1000 engines and is being managed under a service bulletin and a CFL model, which was produced by the engine manufacturer and approved by EASA. On 5 December 2017 engine number 10231, installed on Boeing 787-9 (registration ZK-NZE) was five cycles into its 80-cycle notice of removal when it suffered an IPT blade release. Less than 18 hours later, engine number 10227 on another of the operator’s Boeing 787-9 aeroplanes (registration ZK-NZF) had a similar event. The second engine had 192 cycles remaining until the CFL model scheduled removal. Both flights were being conducted under EDTO procedures.

 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2144139 12-Dec-2018 13:59
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I don't understand - this is driven 100% by greed. They are sacrificing quality for profit.

 

They are making more money than ever before, and still keep digging deeper and deeper into the company and screwing over workers and passengers alike to save money.

 

I used to be proud of Air New Zealand, trusted them and would pay more vs Jetstar. Not any more.

 

I know this is an essentially worthless gesture, but every comment I've read, all the information basically points to AirNZ saying to the workers: "We are going to take away your pay and have someone else do it. If you don't like it - Tough titties."

 

 

 

They have a freaking captive market on most routes and are not afraid to capitalise on this monopoly, but it's still not enough. The execs/shareholders demand more and more profit is made.

 

And remember it's not like they make shoes, or computers. They fly and upkeep freaking aircraft. 

 

Heck, even stress from this strike means workers will be under more pressure, which increases the likelihood of mistakes being make. 

 

1 eensy tiny mistake or poor workmanship in any part of work or maintenance in an aircraft and you can (and will) cost hundreds of lives. 

 

 


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  Reply # 2144154 12-Dec-2018 14:34
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tehgerbil:

 

I don't understand - this is driven 100% by greed. They are sacrificing quality for profit.

 

They are making more money than ever before, and still keep digging deeper and deeper into the company and screwing over workers and passengers alike to save money.

 

I used to be proud of Air New Zealand, trusted them and would pay more vs Jetstar. Not any more.

 

I know this is an essentially worthless gesture, but every comment I've read, all the information basically points to AirNZ saying to the workers: "We are going to take away your pay and have someone else do it. If you don't like it - Tough titties."

 

 

 

They have a freaking captive market on most routes and are not afraid to capitalise on this monopoly, but it's still not enough. The execs/shareholders demand more and more profit is made.

 

And remember it's not like they make shoes, or computers. They fly and upkeep freaking aircraft. 

 

Heck, even stress from this strike means workers will be under more pressure, which increases the likelihood of mistakes being make. 

 

1 eensy tiny mistake or poor workmanship in any part of work or maintenance in an aircraft and you can (and will) cost hundreds of lives. 

 

 

 

 

I believe that the NZ Gov still has 53% of the Air NZ shares so maybe they want the money. 





Regards,

Old3eyes


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  Reply # 2144175 12-Dec-2018 14:56
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tehgerbil:

 

They are making more money than ever before, and still keep digging deeper and deeper into the company and screwing over workers and passengers alike to save money.

 

 

So you're criticising Air NZ for being successful and making money in an environment and industry where many airlines including a significant number of very large players (Cathay Pacific being one of the best examples) are losing significant amounts of money. Fuel costs have burned Air NZ badly this year and while hedging has helped it's a double edged sword.

 

What happened to celebrating the success of a company making a profit in an incredibly difficult market? 

 

Air NZ profits next year will not be anywhere near what they were last year or the year before, that's guaranteed. Profits are essential when you're committing to (off the top of my head) around $2.5 billion in new aircraft in the next few years.

 

 


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  Reply # 2144179 12-Dec-2018 15:04
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tehgerbil:

 

I don't understand - this is driven 100% by greed. They are sacrificing quality for profit.

 

They are making more money than ever before, and still keep digging deeper and deeper into the company and screwing over workers and passengers alike to save money.

 

I used to be proud of Air New Zealand, trusted them and would pay more vs Jetstar. Not any more.

 

I know this is an essentially worthless gesture, but every comment I've read, all the information basically points to AirNZ saying to the workers: "We are going to take away your pay and have someone else do it. If you don't like it - Tough titties."

 

 

 

They have a freaking captive market on most routes and are not afraid to capitalise on this monopoly, but it's still not enough. The execs/shareholders demand more and more profit is made.

 

And remember it's not like they make shoes, or computers. They fly and upkeep freaking aircraft. 

 

Heck, even stress from this strike means workers will be under more pressure, which increases the likelihood of mistakes being make. 

 

1 eensy tiny mistake or poor workmanship in any part of work or maintenance in an aircraft and you can (and will) cost hundreds of lives. 

 

 

 

 

Firstly, yes the safety of the flying public should always come first. No argument

 

But, just because they are making a profit, this doesn't automatically mean they should give this all to the staff. Yes, shareholders would want\expect a bigger dividend, that's why they're shareholder...they in it to make money

 

But they also need to keep money\profit to fund future aircraft purchases and to fund other capital expenditure (lounges, in flight entertainment etc etc)


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  Reply # 2144182 12-Dec-2018 15:11
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sbiddle:

 

tehgerbil:

 

They are making more money than ever before, and still keep digging deeper and deeper into the company and screwing over workers and passengers alike to save money.

 

 

So you're criticising Air NZ for being successful and making money in an environment and industry where many airlines including a significant number of very large players (Cathay Pacific being one of the best examples) are losing significant amounts of money. Fuel costs have burned Air NZ badly this year and while hedging has helped it's a double edged sword.

 

What happened to celebrating the success of a company making a profit in an incredibly difficult market? 

 

Air NZ profits next year will not be anywhere near what they were last year or the year before, that's guaranteed.

 

 

No. Don't misquote me.

 

While making record levels of profit, slashing your workers pay and expecting them to work more makes Air New Zealand an awful company

 

 

 

**Edit to prevent a double post**

 

 

 

WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

Firstly, yes the safety of the flying public should always come first. No argument

 

But, just because they are making a profit, this doesn't automatically mean they should give this all to the staff. Yes, shareholders would want\expect a bigger dividend, that's why they're shareholder...they in it to make money

 

But they also need to keep money\profit to fund future aircraft purchases and to fund other capital expenditure (lounges, in flight entertainment etc etc)

 

 

 

 

They're not supplying better service to the customer, they're not giving more money to their staff, they're taking away money from their staff to bolster their profit.

 

And yes, they're entitled to do so, as a company.

 

But remember, we're not talking shoe maker. Or a trampoline maker here but an Airline whose aircraft ferry millions of passengers and it's proven time after time that poor maintenance can and does cause aircraft to fail.

 

To me, this is something a struggling airline cuts down on. Not one making record profits.


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  Reply # 2144226 12-Dec-2018 15:19
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sbiddle:

 

amiga500:

 

I've always wondered why Air NZ had two major B787 engine incidents & not just one.   After the first engine almost destroyed itself you would have thought it would be prudent to ground the other ones until an inspection had been made on all the other 787s and engines.  

 

 

A check would have detected nothing. Have you actually read the full report into the failures and understand the risk migitation procedures that were already in place?

 

 

Due to the large number of engines that need modification, the engine manufacturer instituted a risk mitigation programme called the Corrosion Fatigue Lifing (CFL) model. The model predicted the crack propagation in blades and the time (in engine cycles12) when the relevant engines had to be removed from the aeroplane for modification.

 

.....

 

IPT blade release is a known problem with the Trent 1000 engines and is being managed under a service bulletin and a CFL model, which was produced by the engine manufacturer and approved by EASA. On 5 December 2017 engine number 10231, installed on Boeing 787-9 (registration ZK-NZE) was five cycles into its 80-cycle notice of removal when it suffered an IPT blade release. Less than 18 hours later, engine number 10227 on another of the operator’s Boeing 787-9 aeroplanes (registration ZK-NZF) had a similar event. The second engine had 192 cycles remaining until the CFL model scheduled removal. Both flights were being conducted under EDTO procedures.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe a great big red flag that the procedure mandated by Rolls Royce was about as serviceable as their engines?   I bet some Air NZ engineers did not sleep very well after the first incident..


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  Reply # 2144227 12-Dec-2018 15:20
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tehgerbil:

 

While making record levels of profit, slashing your workers pay and expecting them to work more makes Air New Zealand an awful company.

 

 

Do you have a source for this claim? According to Air NZ 'the engineers have "received pay increases annually for the past 12 years [and] so far rejected recent proposals by the airline including an immediate 2 percent pay increase followed by a further three percent increase after 12 months, with a further pay review in mid-2021.' (source: https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/378101/air-new-zealand-engineers-strike-what-you-need-to-know )


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  Reply # 2144229 12-Dec-2018 15:23
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

Firstly, yes the safety of the flying public should always come first. No argument

 

 

Hah! Airlines (and I doubt that AirNZ is different) operate on a least-probable-cost model when it comes to safety. They look at the likely cost of an accident, and the cost of preventing the accident, and only prevent the accident if it costs less.

 

 

But, just because they are making a profit, this doesn't automatically mean they should give this all to the staff. Yes, shareholders would want\expect a bigger dividend, that's why they're shareholder...they in it to make money

 

 

The problem is that shareholders *expect*/require a return on investment. If shares are worth $X, then 15% (or some such number) of X is expected as a dividend each and every year. If the airline does well, then the share price goes up, and the same percentage RoI is still expected. And no-one cares if the employees have to be screwed over to achieve that RoI. Which is why unions are needed.

 

 


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  Reply # 2144267 12-Dec-2018 15:49
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stinger:

tehgerbil:

 

While making record levels of profit, slashing your workers pay and expecting them to work more makes Air New Zealand an awful company.

 

 

Do you have a source for this claim? According to Air NZ 'the engineers have "received pay increases annually for the past 12 years [and] so far rejected recent proposals by the airline including an immediate 2 percent pay increase followed by a further three percent increase after 12 months, with a further pay review in mid-2021.' (source: https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/378101/air-new-zealand-engineers-strike-what-you-need-to-know )

 

 

The nzherald points to it not being just about pay. Working conditions and that fact that the proposals were a step down, hence the need for more negotiation.

 

 

Other comments from reddit mention that in the 6 weeks they had for negotiations the airnz side spent maybe one days worth actually sitting at the table with the union.

 

 

The remarks about not enough engineers but too much work seems apt.

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  Reply # 2144272 12-Dec-2018 15:57
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tehgerbil:

 

sbiddle:

 

tehgerbil:

 

They are making more money than ever before, and still keep digging deeper and deeper into the company and screwing over workers and passengers alike to save money.

 

 

So you're criticising Air NZ for being successful and making money in an environment and industry where many airlines including a significant number of very large players (Cathay Pacific being one of the best examples) are losing significant amounts of money. Fuel costs have burned Air NZ badly this year and while hedging has helped it's a double edged sword.

 

What happened to celebrating the success of a company making a profit in an incredibly difficult market? 

 

Air NZ profits next year will not be anywhere near what they were last year or the year before, that's guaranteed.

 

 

No. Don't misquote me.

 

While making record levels of profit, slashing your workers pay and expecting them to work more makes Air New Zealand an awful company

 

 

 

**Edit to prevent a double post**

 

 

 

WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

Firstly, yes the safety of the flying public should always come first. No argument

 

But, just because they are making a profit, this doesn't automatically mean they should give this all to the staff. Yes, shareholders would want\expect a bigger dividend, that's why they're shareholder...they in it to make money

 

But they also need to keep money\profit to fund future aircraft purchases and to fund other capital expenditure (lounges, in flight entertainment etc etc)

 

 

 

 

They're not supplying better service to the customer, they're not giving more money to their staff, they're taking away money from their staff to bolster their profit.

 

And yes, they're entitled to do so, as a company.

 

But remember, we're not talking shoe maker. Or a trampoline maker here but an Airline whose aircraft ferry millions of passengers and it's proven time after time that poor maintenance can and does cause aircraft to fail.

 

To me, this is something a struggling airline cuts down on. Not one making record profits.

 

 

Rubbish.

 

They gave $1800 to permanent staff not in a short-term incentive programme when they announced the profit.

 

The offer presented seemed very reasonable as well

 

The airline says the engineers have "received pay increases annually for the past 12 years [and] so far rejected recent proposals by the airline including an immediate 2 percent pay increase followed by a further three percent increase after 12 months, with a further pay review in mid-2021.

 

"Staff have also declined a proposal to standardise overtime pay to 150 percent of regular pay rate (currently overtime is paid at a mix of double time and time and a half), and a corresponding $6400 one off payment to address the change in rate. Only some of this workgroup does regular overtime but the payment would be made to everyone employed under this collective agreement.

 

"Along with pay, claims on the aircraft maintenance engineers' side have included an extra week of annual leave for employees with five years' service (taking shift workers to six weeks a year), free reserved car parking spaces within 500 metres of their workplace, and the right to renegotiate terms just prior to the busy Christmas season again next year."

 

And if Air NZ give in to this industrial action, who will be lining up next with there hand out?

 

Yes, they did make a $390 odd million dollar after tax profit, but when 1 new aircraft is between 300-400 million US...

 

And if you aren't making a profit during the good times, you won't be around for long if you don't have the cash reserves in the harder times.


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