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  Reply # 2153711 3-Jan-2019 10:29
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mudguard:

scuwp:


Please let us know how that works out for you.


$5,000 fine and your device gets confiscated anyway.  



What if your name is similar to someone who is on a list somewhere? I'm pretty sure my work will not let me give up my work phone or laptop. In which case I guess they're going to cover the $5000 fine. 



And you get flagged for all future flights for the rest of your life and get the conviction on your record. If you work for a company that has these sorts of concerns (not just tin foil hat brigade) then I suggest you need to have a serious talk with your boss.




Always be yourself, unless you can be Batman, then always be the Batman



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  Reply # 2153734 3-Jan-2019 11:27
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I juts have clause in all our contracts saying that we can breach confidentiality if required by law, but only yo the minimum extent required to comply law and that we must immediately notify the customer of the breach.

 

As to personal info, I have no concerns in any western democratic country. I'm quite a boring person.

 

If I'm travelling anywhere else, I take my fishing phone and my regular SIM card.





Mike

 
 
 
 


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 2153797 3-Jan-2019 12:27
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scuwp:

 

landcruiserguy:

 

If you turn the device off rather than just leaving it locked it generally requires a password rather than a fingerprint scan.  Depending on the settings the device will wipe after a number of failed password attempts.  I don't have anything to hide but giving up your right to privacy because of that is just naive.  Look at the social credit system in China for the logical extension of where all this is going.  War Is Peace, Freedom Is Slavery, and Ignorance Is Strength.

 

 

Please let us know how that works out for you.

 

$5,000 fine and your device gets confiscated anyway.  

 

They must have reasonable cause and they are looking for organised criminal activity, child trafficking, etc.  They won't give a toss about anything else.  Do you really think they have time for searching the device of any ole tom dick or harry?  If they are asking for your device you are probably already on Interpol's (or insert major Police organisation of your choice) watch list or are known/suspected to be linked to organised crime/terrorist group.   They always had the power to seize anyway.  Storm - teacup.  

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/10/customs-to-fine-travellers-who-dont-hand-over-device-passwords.html

 

 

I think you are missing the point and didn't read what I wrote.  It's not that I am a bloke muttering allah aukbar under my breath on my way to Syria it's that all humans have the right to privacy and if we don't defend this right we won't have it.

 

If you don't agree with me please post your gmail and cloud passwords on this thread.  Given that you don't have anything to hide then you should have no problems doing this.  If you aren't wiling to do this then you agree with me that we should all have the right to privacy.  Even if you don't believe in this right your customers and the people you communicate do so this should be respected.

 

My comment about turning off the phone is that in the states the police can get you to fingerprint scan your phone to unlock it without a warrant.  Forcing someone to give up a password requires a warrant.  The situation in NZ and with customs is likely to be different but it's still a valid principal.

 

Of course none of this matters to the real police because they can just get your data from the cloud providers rather than using the old fashioned and legally harder method of getting it off your device.

 

If you are not aware of how the social credit system works in China it's worth reading.  Big Brother would be proud.

 

China's Social Credit System


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 2153799 3-Jan-2019 12:31
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BlinkyBill: I have some tinfoil hats for sale, will prevent The Man using Government Mind Probes from accessing your memory.

 

10 years ago if you had said that the gubberment was reading your messages then everyone would have talked about tinfoil hats.  Then we discovered that they actually did this as a matter of routine and now everyone just accepts it.   It's not humans reading your data, it's AI which is getting better and better at it's job every day.




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  Reply # 2153806 3-Jan-2019 12:47
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landcruiserguy:

 

BlinkyBill: I have some tinfoil hats for sale, will prevent The Man using Government Mind Probes from accessing your memory.

 

10 years ago if you had said that the gubberment was reading your messages then everyone would have talked about tinfoil hats.  Then we discovered that they actually did this as a matter of routine and now everyone just accepts it.   It's not humans reading your data, it's AI which is getting better and better at it's job every day.

 

 

The endgame will be governments using such data to identify any opposition and silence them by whatever means necessary.  Better hope you pick the right side.


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2153807 3-Jan-2019 12:49
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landcruiserguy:

 

10 years ago if you had said that the gubberment was reading your messages then everyone would have talked about tinfoil hats.  Then we discovered that they actually did this as a matter of routine and now everyone just accepts it.   It's not humans reading your data, it's AI which is getting better and better at it's job every day.

 

 

It's now 2019, and even those who know better are still promoting GMail as a solution for business e-mail. Patiently waiting for the tides to turn, so I can say "I told you so".


231 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 2153810 3-Jan-2019 12:57
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sross:

 

landcruiserguy:

 

BlinkyBill: I have some tinfoil hats for sale, will prevent The Man using Government Mind Probes from accessing your memory.

 

10 years ago if you had said that the gubberment was reading your messages then everyone would have talked about tinfoil hats.  Then we discovered that they actually did this as a matter of routine and now everyone just accepts it.   It's not humans reading your data, it's AI which is getting better and better at it's job every day.

 

 

The endgame will be governments using such data to identify any opposition and silence them by whatever means necessary.  Better hope you pick the right side.

 

 

They don't need to silence people, they just need to influence behavior.  Knowing you are being observed means you alter behavior to avoid consequences.  If you don't believe this then try stating on social media that you don't believe in something popular like LGBT rights.  For the record I support LGBTIQ+ rights as well as some other rights I don't even know about...

 

This is how online data is collected and used in China:

 

Data collection[edit]

 

The Chinese government aims at assessing the trustworthiness and compliance of each person.[23][clarification needed] Data stems both from peoples' own accounts, as well as their network's activities. Website operators can mine the traces of data that users exchange with websites and derive a full social profile, including location, friends, health records, insurance, private messages, financial position, gaming duration, smart home statistics, preferred newspapers, shopping history, and dating behaviour.[23][clarification needed]

 

Data structuring[edit]

 

Automated algorithms are used to structure the collected data, based on government rules.[23][clarification needed]

 

This data then results in your credit score which influences everything from interest rates, which schools your kids can go to and what kind of travel you can use.  If the government wants to influence on line behavior then they just need to alter the algorithms used to structure that data and tell everyone the rules have changed.  They have already used this to influence driving behavior in major Chinese cities.  This isn't imaginary, it already exists and is five years into it's roll out in 2013.




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Geek
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  Reply # 2153836 3-Jan-2019 13:02
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landcruiserguy:

 

sross:

 

landcruiserguy:

 

BlinkyBill: I have some tinfoil hats for sale, will prevent The Man using Government Mind Probes from accessing your memory.

 

10 years ago if you had said that the gubberment was reading your messages then everyone would have talked about tinfoil hats.  Then we discovered that they actually did this as a matter of routine and now everyone just accepts it.   It's not humans reading your data, it's AI which is getting better and better at it's job every day.

 

 

The endgame will be governments using such data to identify any opposition and silence them by whatever means necessary.  Better hope you pick the right side.

 

 

They don't need to silence people, they just need to influence behavior.  Knowing you are being observed means you alter behavior to avoid consequences.  If you don't believe this then try stating on social media that you don't believe in something popular like LGBT rights.  For the record I support LGBTIQ+ rights as well as some other rights I don't even know about...

 

This is how online data is collected and used in China:

 

Data collection[edit]

 

The Chinese government aims at assessing the trustworthiness and compliance of each person.[23][clarification needed] Data stems both from peoples' own accounts, as well as their network's activities. Website operators can mine the traces of data that users exchange with websites and derive a full social profile, including location, friends, health records, insurance, private messages, financial position, gaming duration, smart home statistics, preferred newspapers, shopping history, and dating behaviour.[23][clarification needed]

 

Data structuring[edit]

 

Automated algorithms are used to structure the collected data, based on government rules.[23][clarification needed]

 

This data then results in your credit score which influences everything from interest rates, which schools your kids can go to and what kind of travel you can use.  If the government wants to influence on line behavior then they just need to alter the algorithms used to structure that data and tell everyone the rules have changed.  They have already used this to influence driving behavior in major Chinese cities.  This isn't imaginary, it already exists and is five years into it's roll out in 2013.

 

 

So dystopian.  I suspect the top gov officials are exempt from the bulk of the social credit score algos.


231 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 2153840 3-Jan-2019 13:18
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Another thought worth considering is that people who were happy with Obama having access to their data "it's to fight terrorism, honest" may be less happy with Trump having access to it.  Plan for the government you might get tomorrow not the one we have today.


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  Reply # 2153858 3-Jan-2019 14:05
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landcruiserguy:

 

Plan for the government you might get tomorrow not the one we have today.

 

 

That is a good point, but it requires a highly substantial shift in govt - a revolution, coup or takeover.

 

Historically people have been killed for religious belief, economic status (rich or poor), sexuality, race, extra-marital sex, or even being educated.

 

There is almost no demographic or lifestyle information that hasn't been used for some hideous regime to decide who to kill.

 

 

 

 





Mike

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2153866 3-Jan-2019 14:25
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Partly related, I was at a NYE event in Te Anau of all places. The police were wandering amongst the crowd asking everyone to remove their phones and unlock them. A young girl had reported her phone as stolen so they were looking for anyone carrying a device that they couldn't unlock.


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Trusted

  Reply # 2153886 3-Jan-2019 14:41
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Senecio:

 

Partly related, I was at a NYE event in Te Anau of all places. The police were wandering amongst the crowd asking everyone to remove their phones and unlock them. A young girl had reported her phone as stolen so they were looking for anyone carrying a device that they couldn't unlock.

 

 

 

 

Thats most likely cause there was a smaller group of people, someones phone was gona nd it was logical to just get people to do that to prove they do have access/ownership of the phone..
I would not cross these lines and use this as a comparison.

 

You bet if you came to a party of mine and my phone went missing every darn person there would need to empty their pockets and prove they can unlock the phone they have on them....





 


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  Reply # 2153920 3-Jan-2019 15:46
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I guess if the police were merely observing that the person could access the phone, rather than produce some document or photo on the phone proving ownership they may have been within the law.   Any lawyers on Geekzone?

 

What if 10 people had refused to unlock their phone?   I guess the police would have said it was worth a try!


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  Reply # 2153951 3-Jan-2019 16:33
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mudguard:

scuwp:


Please let us know how that works out for you.


$5,000 fine and your device gets confiscated anyway.  



What if your name is similar to someone who is on a list somewhere? I'm pretty sure my work will not let me give up my work phone or laptop. In which case I guess they're going to cover the $5000 fine. 


I'm pretty sure your employment contract requires you to behave in a legal manner. That includes handing over your work phoneetc if the law requires you to.

694 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2153961 3-Jan-2019 16:48
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Handle9:

 

I'm pretty sure your employment contract requires you to behave in a legal manner. That includes handing over your work phoneetc if the law requires you to.

 

 

 

It would be interesting to test. If it meant paying a $5k fine and being fired, then I'm paying the fine. 


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