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  Reply # 2203793 23-Mar-2019 12:56
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Technofreak: Batman

I know about all those things. You're not telling me anything I don't know. I have attended many Human Factors and CRM sessions.

Of course there's several factors in any accident. James Reason is famous within aviation Human Factors training for his Swiss Cheese model.

The pilot is the last line of defence in many cases. Unfortunately from what I can tell the last line of defence failed in these two accidents where it hasn't on several similar incidents elsewhere. The question has to be asked. Why?


I'm sure we will find out in due time




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  Reply # 2203813 23-Mar-2019 13:55
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Sorry if this has been asked but I haven't had time to read the thread and it's quite a technical discussion, which goes over my head.

Question: I'm taking the family to Fiji in November and I believe it's on one of the Max 8s. Should I be worried?

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 2203837 23-Mar-2019 14:20
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MileHighKiwi: Sorry if this has been asked but I haven't had time to read the thread and it's quite a technical discussion, which goes over my head.

Question: I'm taking the family to Fiji in November and I believe it's on one of the Max 8s. Should I be worried?

 

Max 8's are grounded worldwide.


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  Reply # 2203843 23-Mar-2019 14:49
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Technofreak:

 

I cannot believe the pilots of these aircraft were not aware of how to deal with a trim problem which is what this essentially was. I also cannot believe they had not made it their business after the Lion Air crash to find out all they could about the quirks of the 737 Max.

 

So it's the pilot's fault that the didn't resort to Google to find out what Boeing (allegedly) initially hid from pilots?

 

Technofreak:

 

I fear this whole thing has now become very political in several areas and I'm not sure we will ever get to know the total truth. I think the aircraft will be made a scapegoat and the designers will be hung out to dry. There are people with agendas and people covering their backsides.

 

My read of it is that there is the possibility that the aircraft and the secret software Boeing installed to try and turn a plane that is not a 737 into a 737 could be the main culprit. If this is the case, they should be hung out to dry.

 

That said, my thoughts, as are everyone else's, are speculation while we wait for more clarity as to what happened and what should have been done to prevent a double tragedy.




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  Reply # 2203883 23-Mar-2019 18:02
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dafman:

Technofreak:


I cannot believe the pilots of these aircraft were not aware of how to deal with a trim problem which is what this essentially was. I also cannot believe they had not made it their business after the Lion Air crash to find out all they could about the quirks of the 737 Max.


So it's the pilot's fault that the didn't resort to Google to find out what Boeing (allegedly) initially hid from pilots?


Technofreak:


I fear this whole thing has now become very political in several areas and I'm not sure we will ever get to know the total truth. I think the aircraft will be made a scapegoat and the designers will be hung out to dry. There are people with agendas and people covering their backsides.


My read of it is that there is the possibility that the aircraft and the secret software Boeing installed to try and turn a plane that is not a 737 into a 737 could be the main culprit. If this is the case, they should be hung out to dry.


That said, my thoughts, as are everyone else's, are speculation while we wait for more clarity as to what happened and what should have been done to prevent a double tragedy.



Remember these pilots afaik were trained to fly 737s which is a completely different plane. It's like being told your mission is to escape from a 1st floor room and suddenly you find the room is inside a diving pool and you have 30 seconds to save yourself, and knowing it's not a training drill. That sort of pressure.




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  Reply # 2203893 23-Mar-2019 18:35
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Lion Air 610 Preliminary Accident Investigation Report here.


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  Reply # 2203894 23-Mar-2019 18:41
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Informative read here


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  Reply # 2203895 23-Mar-2019 18:48
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Policy Guy, you are correct, that article indeed talked about the elevators. My mistake. I skimmed the story quickly on my phone during a short break and didn't read it properly and had a mindset it was talking about the trim. I should have been more careful. I take back what I said.

While we are on the subject of that article, it talks about the trim operating in the background. That gives an impression it's operating without the pilots knowledge. It' s my understanding that any time the trim operates on the 737, the trim wheel on the control pedestal moves, thus the pilot is always aware of any trim changes beng made by automatic systems on the aircraft.




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  Reply # 2203899 23-Mar-2019 18:54
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Batman:

 

Remember these pilots afaik were trained to fly 737s which is a completely different plane. It's like being told your mission is to escape from a 1st floor room and suddenly you find the room is inside a diving pool and you have 30 seconds to save yourself, and knowing it's not a training drill. That sort of pressure.

 

It's nothing like that sort of pressure. Both aircraft are very similar, and any pilot who flies a 737 NG can easily fly a MAX - this is ironically why the conversion course is so short.

 

 


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  Reply # 2203900 23-Mar-2019 19:01
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dafman:

 

Technofreak:

 

I cannot believe the pilots of these aircraft were not aware of how to deal with a trim problem which is what this essentially was. I also cannot believe they had not made it their business after the Lion Air crash to find out all they could about the quirks of the 737 Max.

 

So it's the pilot's fault that the didn't resort to Google to find out what Boeing (allegedly) initially hid from pilots?

 

 

There  has been nothing to suggest so far that the Ethiopian pilots used the stab trim cutout switches on their flight. I can't believe after the Lion Air incident and publicity surrounding it, combined with the fact Ethiopian have said these pilots underwent additional training after the Lion Air crash that these pilots (or infact any MAX pilot anywhere in the world) didn't know about the switches. If they didn't know there are serious issues well outside Boeing's control.

 

It is worth pointing out as well that these switches existed in the 737 NG as well, it's just that the NG didn't have MCAS.

 

 


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  Reply # 2203914 23-Mar-2019 19:32
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dafman:

So it's the pilot's fault that the didn't resort to Google to find out what Boeing (allegedly) initially hid from pilots?



There was no need to go to Google.

It should have been in their inbox. Boeing released a bulletin in early November 2019, right after the Lion Air crash. This bulletin had to be inserted into the FCOM (Flight Crew Operating Manual) within 3 days. This bulletin outlined the issue, it reminded pilots of the need to be familiar with the procedures in the Non Normal Checklist for dealing with trim problems and the bulletin contained a copy of the checklist items.

I knew about the release of the bulletin but didn't look at it till today. Every 737 Max operator should have made the contents of the bulletin known to all of their pilots.

Someone is criminally negligent if the Ethopian pilots were not aware of the bulletin. What's more the procedues in the bulletin weren't new procedures, they already existed in the manual. Any pilot flying that aircraft should have known these procedures.

Asdie from that I'd find it incerdible the pilots hadn't bother to do some homework themselves on the issue. I know for sure I would have been if I was flyin one of these.


dafman

My read of it is that there is the possibility that the aircraft and the secret software Boeing installed to try and turn a plane that is not a 737 into a 737 could be the main culprit. If this is the case, they should be hung out to dry.



It's a 737 end of story.

My read of it is it is more likely a sensor problem that may be fixed with a software change to allow for a faulty input from a sensor. Also my reading of what the MCAS system was intended to achieve was quite sound, however there have been some unforeseen and unintended consequences.


dafman

That said, my thoughts, as are everyone else's, are speculation while we wait for more clarity as to what happened and what should have been done to prevent a double tragedy.



Boeing did do what was needed in my opinion. How can Boeing be blamed if an airline doesn't make sure their pilots are aware of the correct procedures




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  Reply # 2203915 23-Mar-2019 19:41
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Batman: Remember these pilots afaik were trained to fly 737s which is a completely different plane. It's like being told your mission is to escape from a 1st floor room and suddenly you find the room is inside a diving pool and you have 30 seconds to save yourself, and knowing it's not a training drill. That sort of pressure.


No, in fact the old and new 737's are very similar.

If indeed the two aircraft were as different as you claim them to be, the pilots undergo intensive training on the differences and have to pass a simuator check covering emergency procedures before they are allowed to fly the aircraft with fare paying passengers on board. They cannot just jump in and go as it seems you think they can.




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  Reply # 2203917 23-Mar-2019 20:03
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Boeing did do what was needed in my opinion. How can Boeing be blamed if an airline doesn't make sure their pilots are aware of the correct procedures

This is the same as Boeing's opinion, and Boeing's opinion was the same after the Lion crash. Investigation of the Ethiopian Airlines crash has hardly started and will not be complete for a long time.

It's interesting with the fault on the Lion plane it was a third person present in the cockpit who suggested the correct procedure.

I'm guessing the issue feels incredibly severe for the people flying it and easy to lose perspective. This is understandable when your plane is diving under power.




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  Reply # 2203920 23-Mar-2019 20:23
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gzt: I'm guessing the issue feels incredibly severe for the people flying it and easy to lose perspective. This is understandable when your plane is diving under power.


That's just it though. The aircraft didn't suddenly start diving. It gradually when into a dive over a period of time. Firstly the Captin flew while First officer read the QRH and then when he couldn't find anything the First Officer flew while the Captain read the QRH.

It sure seems there was plenty of time to carry out the corrective actions even allowing for the "rabbit in the headlights" moment.




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  Reply # 2203983 23-Mar-2019 21:50
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MileHighKiwi: Sorry if this has been asked but I haven't had time to read the thread and it's quite a technical discussion, which goes over my head.

Question: I'm taking the family to Fiji in November and I believe it's on one of the Max 8s. Should I be worried?


In a word, No. What if anything that needs sorting will be sorted out by then.

Also it's Air Fiji that operates it and I don't think there'd be any issues with Air Fiji if you were going tomorrow.




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