Another (2nd) 737 Max 8 crash

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#2195792 11-Mar-2019 12:51

Aredwood: From my understanding, the MCAS was / is overriding pilot commands. Meaning that the pilots cant simply pull back on the ”stick” to keep the plane flying in the desired direction. And that the pilots can only regain control of the aircraft, by disabling the MCAS.

But at low altitude, there may not be enough time to disable the MCAS.

This one will be interesting. In theory retraining should have ensured the pilot disabled mcas and returned to origin. We know the pilot requested a return yet the flight crashed shortly afterwards.

frankv

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#2195817 11-Mar-2019 13:41

networkn:

And how would you check this enough to verify that on the day the pilot was going to follow those procedures?

I expect that, in the interests of their own survival, every 737-MAX 8 pilot has learned as much as he can about MCAS, whether his airline published procedures or not.

In this kind of situation, the FAA/ICAO/CAA/Boeing/Airbus procedures requiring complete validation and vetting of documentation (not the least by each of their lawyers) before release to users, is more of a hindrance than a help.

Beccara

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#2195820 11-Mar-2019 13:52

Hmmmm, Reminds me of the rudder hard over issues with the 737 in the 90's. As a general point I tend to avoid new models from both Boeing and Airbus for at least 3-4 years, New designed in aviation tend to be proven in blood (mostly). This wouldn't be the first time a new class in the same family causes problems with pilot training (Thinking Kegworth)

Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated

networkn

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#2195900 11-Mar-2019 15:00

frankv:

networkn:

And how would you check this enough to verify that on the day the pilot was going to follow those procedures?

I expect that, in the interests of their own survival, every 737-MAX 8 pilot has learned as much as he can about MCAS, whether his airline published procedures or not.

In this kind of situation, the FAA/ICAO/CAA/Boeing/Airbus procedures requiring complete validation and vetting of documentation (not the least by each of their lawyers) before release to users, is more of a hindrance than a help.

Which is great if you know what you need to know, there seems to be some question about whether pilots were aware there was additional training to be undertaken.

The story isn't clear so I accept I may be speaking out of turn, I am not meaning to cast dispersions on the competency of pilots or airlines, it's obviously a complex issue and the two crashes may be unrelated in cause. However, I feel 2 planes within a few months of each other effectively falling from the sky has to be concerning some. I personally would opt to take as much risk out of my travel as I can, and until the story IS clear, I feel it prudent not to fly these particular aircraft.

Batman

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#2195955 11-Mar-2019 15:45

frankv:

networkn:

And how would you check this enough to verify that on the day the pilot was going to follow those procedures?

I expect that, in the interests of their own survival, every 737-MAX 8 pilot has learned as much as he can about MCAS, whether his airline published procedures or not.

In this kind of situation, the FAA/ICAO/CAA/Boeing/Airbus procedures requiring complete validation and vetting of documentation (not the least by each of their lawyers) before release to users, is more of a hindrance than a help.

You are suggesting that every pilot needs to go onto wikipedia asap, google for MCAS hacks and apply them when quora says they should apply them, and that you would feel completely safe in one of these things?

I applaud your bravery.

Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.

alasta

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#2195957 11-Mar-2019 15:48

RNZ is now reporting that Chinese authorities have grounded all 737 MAX aircraft. It will be interesting to see if other states follow suit.

gzt

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#2195961 11-Mar-2019 15:54

Beccara:
Hmmmm, Reminds me of the rudder hard over issues with the 737 in the 90's. As a general point I tend to avoid new models from both Boeing and Airbus for at least 3-4 years, New designed in aviation tend to be proven in blood (mostly). This wouldn't be the first time a new class in the same family causes problems with pilot training (Thinking Kegworth)

It's almost as if new aircraft should be brought into service as freight, only with experienced pilots on danger money. I'm aware that's no the way the industry works these days. In any case we'll have to wait a while to know if the current crash is the same sensor issue.

Beccara

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#2195979 11-Mar-2019 16:17

TBH I've always been a little bit uneasy with the certification process for new models of the existing family, I understand the commercial reasons for it but if it turns out that these crashes are because of pilot unfamiliarity then it's another kegworth and another reason pilots at the very least shouldn't be bouncing between different models with 3-10 sim hours and a check ride

kiwiandy

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#2196011 11-Mar-2019 17:33

alasta:

RNZ is now reporting that Chinese authorities have grounded all 737 MAX aircraft. It will be interesting to see if other states follow suit.

Great, they can bring all their Tupolovs out and start flying them instead!

Zippity

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#2196013 11-Mar-2019 17:46

Bet the Yanks won't be in a rush to ground these aircraft.

Sad.

tripper1000

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#2196516 12-Mar-2019 13:41

alasta: RNZ is now reporting that Chinese authorities have grounded all 737 MAX aircraft. It will be interesting to see if other states follow suit.

China isn't renowned for caring about public safety, quite the opposite in fact, and given the trade war and the Huawei extradition, I wouldn't read to much into that with regard to 737-8 safety.

Beccara

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#2196517 12-Mar-2019 13:43

Quite a few outside of China are grounding too

ResponseMediaNZ

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#2196519 12-Mar-2019 13:46

FAA says Boeing 737 Max 8 is airworthy - https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/CAN_2019_03.pdf

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-47533052

networkn

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#2196521 12-Mar-2019 13:47

I see CAANZ have said they aren't grounding the only airline who are flying these in NZ, as they are "happy with the safety precautions taken by Fiji Airways".

I am unsure how on earth they can be happy with the precautions without knowing the cause? I mean, tempering of a knee jerk reaction is sensible to a degree, but when you are talking about 200 lives per incident, then I do wonder if caution should really be the primary concern at this point.

Zippity

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#2196586 12-Mar-2019 15:29

ResponseMediaNZ:

FAA says Boeing 737 Max 8 is airworthy - https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/CAN_2019_03.pdf

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-47533052

Did you really expect the FAA to say anything different?

With the millions (or billions) of US Dollars at stake, they are not going to be in a hurry to ground the aircraft.

Only time will tell if they are right or wrong. I'm picking the later :(

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