Another (2nd) 737 Max 8 crash

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# 2196760 12-Mar-2019 20:37

Tracer:

PolicyGuy:

I don't believe any new / changed B737 MAX software or hardware has been approved or issued.
The only changes as far as I know, is to include documentation in the flight crew reference manuals that the MCAS exists, and how it works.

There are probably very serious discussions going on between Boeing and the main certification authorities (FAA & EASA) about how a system that is critical to flight safety can rely on a single sensor (Angle of Attack indicator) input with no redundancy, no 'voting', not even a 'disagree flag'
Just my $0.02

And whether FAA's decision to not require a new type rating given MCAS was the right one. Will be interesting to see if they double down, or ground all MAX until pilots can be trained for a new type rating. So far they appear to be doubling down.

IIRC the upgrade was minor, pilots do the boring familiarity training, also boring, as it was the same aircraft but modified. But it wasn't, the behaviour was not what a 737-xxx pilot expects. This new crash is that same reason, and if so its on the airline. Ethiopian has an apparently good record.

alasta

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# 2196775 12-Mar-2019 20:47

tdgeek:

Beccara:

Hmmmm, Reminds me of the rudder hard over issues with the 737 in the 90's. As a general point I tend to avoid new models from both Boeing and Airbus for at least 3-4 years, New designed in aviation tend to be proven in blood (mostly). This wouldn't be the first time a new class in the same family causes problems with pilot training (Thinking Kegworth)

I was going to mention that, but there were two issues. Wasn't sure the exact details. One, two went down, the rudder went hard over. The case was the rear door detached, airflow took it to the rudder. The other was a rudder hardcover due to a jammed piston that had ice buildup, but want sure if that was 737 or not.

I'm not familiar with the incident of a cargo door hitting the rudder, but the rudder hardcover incidents relating to jammed PCU servo slides certainly involved 737 aircraft. There were two catastrophic accidents, one in 1991 and another in 1994. If I recall correctly it wasn't until 1996 when an aircraft encountered the same fault but managed to recover, and that lead investigators to finally determine the cause of those earlier two accidents.

tdgeek

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# 2196778 12-Mar-2019 20:52

alasta:

tdgeek:

Beccara:

Hmmmm, Reminds me of the rudder hard over issues with the 737 in the 90's. As a general point I tend to avoid new models from both Boeing and Airbus for at least 3-4 years, New designed in aviation tend to be proven in blood (mostly). This wouldn't be the first time a new class in the same family causes problems with pilot training (Thinking Kegworth)

I was going to mention that, but there were two issues. Wasn't sure the exact details. One, two went down, the rudder went hard over. The case was the rear door detached, airflow took it to the rudder. The other was a rudder hardcover due to a jammed piston that had ice buildup, but want sure if that was 737 or not.

I'm not familiar with the incident of a cargo door hitting the rudder, but the rudder hardcover incidents relating to jammed PCU servo slides certainly involved 737 aircraft. There were two catastrophic accidents, one in 1991 and another in 1994. If I recall correctly it wasn't until 1996 when an aircraft encountered the same fault but managed to recover, and that lead investigators to finally determine the cause of those earlier two accidents.

Yep I recall that. The flight went over the Arctic, it froze and left the grill jammed with ice. At the crash site the ice, the "criminal" had melted

The other was the rear passenger door, happened also twice. They knew it was a rudder issue, but the rudder was fine. A fault in the door lock I recall was the issue, it went always to the rudder went it broke, Ill see if I can find it

Tracer

248 posts

Master Geek

# 2196782 12-Mar-2019 21:10

tdgeek:

Beccara:

TBH I've always been a little bit uneasy with the certification process for new models of the existing family, I understand the commercial reasons for it but if it turns out that these crashes are because of pilot unfamiliarity then it's another kegworth and another reason pilots at the very least shouldn't be bouncing between different models with 3-10 sim hours and a check ride

Im probably not up to date on this, I thought after Lion Air the issue was the new model is not the same as the old model, software wise. That was supposed to be fixed and updated across all aircraft? You cant just hop in the simulator to do the legal catchup.

No, FAA forced Boeing to expedite that software update as of today. They have until April. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-boeing/boeing-to-upgrade-software-in-737-max-8-fleet-in-weeks-idUSKBN1QT04X

Tracer

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Master Geek

# 2196784 12-Mar-2019 21:12

tdgeek:

IIRC the upgrade was minor, pilots do the boring familiarity training, also boring, as it was the same aircraft but modified. But it wasn't, the behaviour was not what a 737-xxx pilot expects. This new crash is that same reason, and if so its on the airline. Ethiopian has an apparently good record.

The difference in behaviour is why it should be a separate type rating. Of course Boeing had a strong commercial interest to avoid that, because a big selling point of the MAX is that pilots don't need retrained if they already have 737 type rating.

Beccara

1139 posts

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# 2196808 12-Mar-2019 21:49

tdgeek:

alasta:

tdgeek:

Beccara:

Hmmmm, Reminds me of the rudder hard over issues with the 737 in the 90's. As a general point I tend to avoid new models from both Boeing and Airbus for at least 3-4 years, New designed in aviation tend to be proven in blood (mostly). This wouldn't be the first time a new class in the same family causes problems with pilot training (Thinking Kegworth)

I was going to mention that, but there were two issues. Wasn't sure the exact details. One, two went down, the rudder went hard over. The case was the rear door detached, airflow took it to the rudder. The other was a rudder hardcover due to a jammed piston that had ice buildup, but want sure if that was 737 or not.

I'm not familiar with the incident of a cargo door hitting the rudder, but the rudder hardcover incidents relating to jammed PCU servo slides certainly involved 737 aircraft. There were two catastrophic accidents, one in 1991 and another in 1994. If I recall correctly it wasn't until 1996 when an aircraft encountered the same fault but managed to recover, and that lead investigators to finally determine the cause of those earlier two accidents.

Yep I recall that. The flight went over the Arctic, it froze and left the grill jammed with ice. At the crash site the ice, the "criminal" had melted

The other was the rear passenger door, happened also twice. They knew it was a rudder issue, but the rudder was fine. A fault in the door lock I recall was the issue, it went always to the rudder went it broke, Ill see if I can find it

Might be talking about two different things here, I'm talking about the PCU issue not involving any Arctic flying, UA 585 and USAir 427. The icing issue you might be referring to could be the 767 heat exchanger? That took out a Bejing to London BA flight IIRC.

The cargo door/rudder also might be the DC-10 and AA 96, Cargo door blew off due to design fault and took out the rudder cables causing a hard right

Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated

Aredwood

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# 2196822 12-Mar-2019 22:16

The 737 Max has now been grounded in Australia.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/111201458/fiji-airways-will-continue-to-fly-boeing-737-max-8-after-ethiopian-airlines-crash

tdgeek

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# 2196870 13-Mar-2019 07:07

Beccara:

Might be talking about two different things here, I'm talking about the PCU issue not involving any Arctic flying, UA 585 and USAir 427. The icing issue you might be referring to could be the 767 heat exchanger? That took out a Bejing to London BA flight IIRC.

The cargo door/rudder also might be the DC-10 and AA 96, Cargo door blew off due to design fault and took out the rudder cables causing a hard right

You are no doubt correct, the 737 rung a bell to me for some reason

Tracer

248 posts

Master Geek

# 2196871 13-Mar-2019 07:08

The 737 MAX has now been grounded throughout Europe! https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and-events/press-releases/easa-suspends-all-boeing-737-max-operations-europe

tdgeek

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# 2196872 13-Mar-2019 07:10

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Tracer:

tdgeek:

IIRC the upgrade was minor, pilots do the boring familiarity training, also boring, as it was the same aircraft but modified. But it wasn't, the behaviour was not what a 737-xxx pilot expects. This new crash is that same reason, and if so its on the airline. Ethiopian has an apparently good record.

The difference in behaviour is why it should be a separate type rating. Of course Boeing had a strong commercial interest to avoid that, because a big selling point of the MAX is that pilots don't need retrained if they already have 737 type rating.

Yes, and that's the kicker. I cant understand why Boeing seems to have gotten away with this so lightly. They seemed to throw out a bulletin soon after LionAir, and its all ok now?

Tracer

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Master Geek

# 2196873 13-Mar-2019 07:11

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MAXs turning around and going back home, must be expecting they'll be grounded for a while.

tdgeek

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# 2196875 13-Mar-2019 07:17

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It seems the only ones that don't want to ground it is the US Republican Party and Boeing. Wait for due process. Putting lives behind profits. If the cause was unrelated to LionAir and not a MAX issue it makes no difference, there is too much similarity and to close together to risk another

Tracer

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Master Geek

# 2196877 13-Mar-2019 07:23

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Deadliest airliner currently flying, by a large margin https://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-boeing-737-max-is-now-the-deadliest-mainstream-jetliner-203441321.html

Zippity

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# 2196941 13-Mar-2019 08:39

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freitasm

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# 2196948 13-Mar-2019 08:54

Boeing is preparing a software update to be installed by April. Current stall-prevention system relies on one sensor data only, new software will use multiple sensors for this.

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