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18094 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2197155 13-Mar-2019 11:11
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I see it as a normal 737, but they took MCAS as a none of your business its just to help the aircraft, but it is the pilotss business if there is a function of flight that they arent aware of. Its pretty darn basic, and its cost lives re LionAir


287 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2197246 13-Mar-2019 12:47
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NZ also suspended flights

 

 

 

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/384616/caa-suspends-operations-of-boeing-737-max-8-aircraft-both-in-and-out-of-nz


 
 
 
 


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Uber Geek

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  # 2197256 13-Mar-2019 13:23
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Tzoi:

 

NZ also suspended flights

 

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/384616/caa-suspends-operations-of-boeing-737-max-8-aircraft-both-in-and-out-of-nz

 

 

It was only a matter of time. Air Fiji are going to feel a lot of pain from it.

 

 


1402 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2197307 13-Mar-2019 13:51
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The mighty $$$ always exerts too much influence over safety.  For example the De Havilland Comet was not grounded as soon as it should have been.   Boeing was desperate to get FAA approval for the B777 ETOPs approval over the line in the 1990's and exerted a lot of pressure on the regulator.  Air NZ deciding that sight seeing over the Antarctica would be so much better at a low altitude totally forgetting that they were relying on limited navigation aids.    Air NZ sending out the 2nd B787, after the first aircraft had suffered a total engine failure.  It is more than just luck that Qantas has had such an excellent record...

 

Now, it's the FAA dragging its feet on the B737 Max.


226 posts

Master Geek


  # 2197323 13-Mar-2019 14:36
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To illustrate the type rating issue, check ACN 1555013 at https://titan-server.arc.nasa.gov/ASRSPublicQueryWizard/QueryWizard_Filter.aspx
This is from the USA....

I had my first flight on the Max [to] ZZZ1. We found out we were scheduled to fly the aircraft on the way to the airport in the limo. We had a little time [to] review the essentials in the car. Otherwise we would have walked onto the plane cold.

My post flight evaluation is that we lacked the knowledge to operate the aircraft in all weather and aircraft states safely. The instrumentation is completely different - My scan was degraded, slow and labored having had no experience w/ the new ND (Navigation Display) and ADI (Attitude Director Indicator) presentations/format or functions (manipulation between the screens and systems pages were not provided in training materials. If they were, I had no recollection of that material).

We were unable to navigate to systems pages and lacked the knowledge of what systems information was available to us in the different phases of flight. Our weather radar competency was inadequate to safely navigate significant weather on that dark and stormy night. These are just a few issues that were not addressed in our training.

I recommend the following to help crews w/ their introductory flight on the Max:
Email notification the day before the flight (the email should include: Links - Training Video, PSOB and QRG and all relevant updates/FAQ's)
SME (Subject Matter Expert) Observer - the role of the SME is to introduce systems navigation, display management, answer general questions and provide standardized best practices to the next generation aircraft.

Additionally, the SME will collect de-identified data to provide to the training department for analysis and dissemination to the line pilots regarding FAQs and know systems differences as well best practices in fly the new model aircraft.

1126 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2197332 13-Mar-2019 14:51
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The thing is alot of the MAX kit wouldn't fly (pun intended) in a new ground-up aircraft design, It's far bigger, heavier and more powerful than the base airframe was designed for. The cockpits a mess with the overhead panel (quite a few pilots are grumpy with it) and I understand the warning system is quite different to the 737-NG.

 

 

 

Take it with a certain amount of salt but the QA problems at Charlston are known along with a few other issues raised in this video:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkEpstd9os





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All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

716 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  # 2197664 14-Mar-2019 08:11
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"The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) have temporarily suspended operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 MAX aircraft."

 

In practise this just means the USA now, everywhere else had already grounded them.

 

Maybe a bit unfair to Boeing, we'll know when the crash is fully analysed.


 
 
 
 


1126 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2197665 14-Mar-2019 08:17
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And from somewhere else:

 

 

 

 

 

"The News found five complaints about the Boeing model in a federal database where pilots can voluntarily report about aviation incidents without fear of repercussions.

The complaints are about the safety mechanism cited in preliminary reports about an October Boeing 737 Max 8 crash in Indonesia that killed 189. 

The disclosures found by The News reference problems with an autopilot system, and they all occurred during the ascent after takeoff. Many mentioned the plane suddenly nosing down. While records show these flights occurred in October and November, the airlines the pilots were flying for is redacted from the database."





Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

716 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  # 2197679 14-Mar-2019 08:44
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Beccara:

 

And from somewhere else:

 

"The News found five complaints about the Boeing model in a federal database where pilots can voluntarily report about aviation incidents without fear of repercussions.

The complaints are about the safety mechanism cited in preliminary reports about an October Boeing 737 Max 8 crash in Indonesia that killed 189. 

The disclosures found by The News reference problems with an autopilot system, and they all occurred during the ascent after takeoff. Many mentioned the plane suddenly nosing down. While records show these flights occurred in October and November, the airlines the pilots were flying for is redacted from the database."

 

 

According to Canadian Transport Minister Marc Garneau, Canada's decision to ground it's 737 MAX's was made when a satellite data analysis of over 100 MAX 8 take off's supported these complaints - and appeared to point to other unreported issues.

 

Canada's airlines fly 41 737 Max 8's, his decision had an immediate effect on the value of Canada's main carriers.


8721 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2197684 14-Mar-2019 08:48
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Sidestep:

 

"The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) have temporarily suspended operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 MAX aircraft."

 

In practise this just means the USA now, everywhere else had already grounded them.

 

Maybe a bit unfair to Boeing, we'll know when the crash is fully analysed.

 

 

Below is the statement from the FAA.

 

A large number of people - be they armchair experts or people with direct knowledge/experience - saw ADS-B data days ago (thanks to systems like FR24 etc) allowing them to reach a conclusion several days ago that both flights crashed in remarkably near identical circumstances. 

 

Clearly the White House is involved in the decision-making process, there seems to be suspicion of a situation that's evolved over many years due to Boeing dominance of US airliner production, best described as "regulatory capture". It begs the (unanswerable) question as to how quickly the FAA would have acted if these two disasters had been in Airbus Neo models.  It's a PR disaster for Boeing IMO.

 

 

 

 

 


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  # 2197806 14-Mar-2019 10:55
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I found this post somewhere on the Internet and it ringed true with me based on what I know.

 

 

 

 

The issue with the 737Max started when Boeing's biggest 737 customer, Southwest, wanted a newer more efficient airplane. Boeing killed the 757 and began the Max program.

 

The customer wanted an airplane that wouldn't require any new training or a new type rating. Boeing claimed that the Max was just an updated, more efficient version of it's venerable, proven, workhorse; the classic 737. But the Max wasn't just an updated version of a previously certified airframe. The Max had a new wing and new engines; changing the airframes center of gravity and center of lift. Those characteristics changed the way the airplane flew. So, to make it fly like the current 737-800; Boeing installed a new, secret, 'safety' system called the MCAS. The MCAS was needed to make the airplane fly and feel like the current version 737-800.

 

But it was so secret that Boeing chose not to tell anyone about it. They didn't included it in any maintenance manuals, they didn't include it in any training manuals, they didn't include it in any aircraft operating manuals. They especially didn't tell the pilots about it. The airplane was successful certified as a 737 and no new training was required. A win for Boeing and a win for its biggest 737 customer. With the new flight characteristics the Max might have a proclivity to pitch up under certain flight conditions. To counteract this pitch up moment, Boeing developed and installed the MCAS. The Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System is designed to push the nose or nudge the nose over during a critical pitch up moment. It takes information from computers fed by information from the Angle of Attack vanes. Apparently, the Lion Air crash was caused by faulty information fed to the MCAS. The MCAS pushed the nose over. This caught the pilots by surprise. The airplane was not behaving like they expected or like they were trained to expect. In a effort to arrest this uncommanded, nose over moment, you should be able to disconnect the autopilot and hand fly, manually fly the airplane using your pilotage skills. But, this new secret system was designed to operate in both Auto-flight and manual-flight mode. So even when you are in manual flight mode, if the MCAS is getting false information, it will continue to push you nose over, push your nose down.

 

Runaway trim is something pilots are trained for. That is what Boeing would like to hide behind. That is what Boeing would like to use when it points to pilot error. At least with the Lion Air flight, the passengers and crew were done in by an aircraft system that Boeing chose to keep secret. If @FAA there is nothing wrong with the Max, why has Boeing recently said there is a software update coming out soon. Air France 447, was scheduled to have it's defective pitot tubes replaced when its fatal last flight was scheduled to land in Paris. Just a little too late for 228 passengers and crew? Did the Boeing software update come too late for the 157 passengers and crew on Ethiopian 302?

 


1402 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2197847 14-Mar-2019 11:44
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Well, in the often criticized yet very credible Aljazeera documentary on the 787, Boeing's decision to use the new battery technology show they are willing to really push the envelope on use of new tech. in their planes.   Personally, I am very happy travelling on B737-800s and Airbus A320s, pretty much anything from Airbus and Boeing that is not a brand new model.


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  # 2197899 14-Mar-2019 12:02
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amiga500:

 

Well, in the often criticized yet very credible Aljazeera documentary on the 787, Boeing's decision to use the new battery technology show they are willing to really push the envelope on use of new tech. in their planes.   Personally, I am very happy travelling on B737-800s and Airbus A320s, pretty much anything from Airbus and Boeing that is not a brand new model.

 

 

 

 

Different though. The 787 was a new plane, so new type ratings and new training plans etc.

 

The 787-MAX was technically a different aircraft, but the operators didn't want to retriain/have a different type rating. So Boeing needed a way to avoid that. That work around is what the issue is.


3011 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2198086 14-Mar-2019 15:47
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I'm picking the person at Air NZ with the New Aircraft Cheque Book will be breathing a sign of relief they went for A320/321NEOs over 737 MAXs


3292 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2198297 14-Mar-2019 22:58
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amiga500:

 

The mighty $$$ always exerts too much influence over safety.  For example the De Havilland Comet was not grounded as soon as it should have been.   Boeing was desperate to get FAA approval for the B777 ETOPs approval over the line in the 1990's and exerted a lot of pressure on the regulator.  Air NZ deciding that sight seeing over the Antarctica would be so much better at a low altitude totally forgetting that they were relying on limited navigation aids.    Air NZ sending out the 2nd B787, after the first aircraft had suffered a total engine failure.  It is more than just luck that Qantas has had such an excellent record...

 

Now, it's the FAA dragging its feet on the B737 Max.

 

 

I'm not sure where you got your facts from. Very little of what you say is very relevant to the recent 737 crashes.

 

The Comet was grounded immediately after both inflight break ups. After the first investigation it was thought an in flight fire was responsible and the aircraft was cleared to fly after several modification were made around fire protection and other systems etc, after the second one they discovered the fatigue issue and the current model was withdrawn from service.

 

As for the ETOPS approval, there's always a lot of pressure/convincing of the regulator required. Was there ever any lives lost? Didn't ETOPS prove to be very safe?

 

The Air New Zealand crash in Antarctica had nothing to to do with limited navigation aids. That aircraft had a state of the art INS navigation system. It could very accurately transit the Pacific where there are very few navigation aids. The navigation system very accurately took the aircraft to where it crashed. Only problem was where the aircraft was programmed to go and where the crew though it was programmed to go were two different places.

 

I'd be willing to bet Air New Zealand's decision to keep operating the 787 after the first engine failure was done only after consultation with Rolls Royce who would have had real time data on the engines. 

 

Excellent record of Qantas? I guess you are overlooking the likes of QF1 the 747 that went golfing in Thailand. It cost more to rebuild than it was worth, but allowed Qantas to boast they had never lost a hull.

 

 

 

 

 

You are correct about the $$$$$, but not in that way you seem to be suggesting. Airlines are looking to cut costs, and training is a big cost. How is it other crews have had similar problems and successfully landed the aircraft? I'd suggest training has made the difference and in one case case perhaps ability may have been a contributing factor.

 

I'm not saying any fault (assuming there is one) is acceptable. However with proper training and following the emergency procedures correctly, emergencies can almost always be managed to a successful outcome as has been shown already with this problem on the 737 Max. That's why the pilots are sitting in the best window seats in the aircraft. It will be interesting to see the full reports when they come out. I rather suspect a lack of training or incorrect procedure will feature in the causal factors.

 

 

 

 





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