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  # 2260250 18-Jun-2019 14:01
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frankv:

If it were really about aircraft weight and balance as per @empacher48, they would weigh each passenger.


 



Averages.

Next time you are on a Less than full flight check out the seating. I've been on a few where the isle and window are the only seats occupied and every 5 or so rows may have only 1 person each side.

Seems distribution is taken into account despite us thinking otherwise.

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  # 2260254 18-Jun-2019 14:06
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frankv:

 

If it were really about aircraft weight and balance as per @empacher48, they would weigh each passenger.

 

 

 

 

They do.

 

It's a pretty regular thing around the world to establish base weight for passengers. Here in NZ CAA do big surveys every couple of years for airlines.

 

Weight and balance is important for aircraft - it's why every checked bag is weighted, and why they're then loaded in set areas of the aircraft. On some aircraft depending on loadings you may also find some seats blocked off or passengers moved.

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 2260394 18-Jun-2019 16:21
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sbiddle:

 

Weight and balance is important for aircraft - it's why every checked bag is weighted, and why they're then loaded in set areas of the aircraft. On some aircraft depending on loadings you may also find some seats blocked off or passengers moved.

 

 

Happened to me once, flying from Blenheim to Wellington (in a Bandit, IIRC, one plus two seating).
The plane was only about a third full, most of the passengers were Air Force NCOs. They each had a huge black sausage kitbag as their checked luggage. I talked to a couple of them and they said they'd all been on a course at Woodbourne for a month, their kitbags contained every uniform item they possessed - I guess they were heavy :D

 

We were spread out all round the plane, then there was a bit of a confab at the front - pilot, groundie, cabin crew - and it was "everyone please move right to the front, please", so the front few rows were full up and the rest of the cabin empty.
I guess by the time they loaded all those heavy bags into the rear luggage bay, the front wheel was nearly off the ground! ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: spelling


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  # 2260403 18-Jun-2019 16:34
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PolicyGuy:

 

sbiddle:

 

Weight and balance is important for aircraft - it's why every checked bag is weighted, and why they're then loaded in set areas of the aircraft. On some aircraft depending on loadings you may also find some seats blocked off or passengers moved.

 

 

Happened to me once, flying from Blenheim to Wellington (in a Bandit, IIRC, one plus two seating).
The plane was only about a third full, most of the passengers were Air Force NCOs. They each had a huge black sausage kitbag as their checked luggage. I talked to a couple of them and they said they'd all been on a course at Woodbourne for a month, their kitbags contained every uniform item they possessed - I guess they were heavy :D

 

We were spread out all round the plane, then there was a bit of a confab at the front - pilot, groundie, cabin crew - and it was "everyone please move right to the front, please", so the front few rows were full up and the rest of the cabin empty.
I guess by the time they loaded all those heavy bags into the rear luggage bay, the front wheel was nearly off the ground! ;)

 

Edit: spelling

 

 

I was on an ATR76 back from CHC last year where after boarding all bags were removed from the aircraft and reweighed before being reloaded. As I was sitting in the last row I could hear the discussion which was around the pilots expressing doubt at the baggage weight figures they had been given vs the number of passengers. After reweighing everything it did deliver the same number.

 

As the ATR doesn't have A/C while on the ground it meant a *very* hot plane with everybody sitting in it for probably 25 mins on an evening that was already high 20s

 

 


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  # 2260418 18-Jun-2019 17:04
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sbiddle:

The 7kg limit is nowhere near this limit - which is why everybody takes a full size carry on in the US where there are essentially no weight limits (but you're really going to struggle getting more than 30lb or so in a permitted size carry on!) and even then you'll only fit 4 bags that size per overload locker. If all 4 were that weight it would technically be overweight.

 

 

The planes there already have to be heavily structurally reinforced to carry Americans, so I guess this also means you can pile in more carry-on than you should.

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  # 2260420 18-Jun-2019 17:05
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frankv:

If it were really about aircraft weight and balance as per @empacher48, they would weigh each passenger.

 

 

They don't need to, the aircraft has sensors built in to record weight, and weight distribution. I've been on flights where the captain asked passengers to be relocated in order to balance the plane.

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  # 2260457 18-Jun-2019 18:59
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We do weigh passengers, every three years we have to weigh everyone who boards a flight over a period of two weeks to get the average. We have average weights for infants, children, males, females, sports teams and crew.

Bags are weighed individually and the weight of the cans they go in are added.

There are no sensors on the aircraft to show the balance, it is all done mathematically, the empty aircraft has its own weight and arm to get a moment. Each location on the plane has its own arm, multiply the weight in each station by the arm, add all the moments together. Then divide the total weight by the moment and you get the final centre of gravity position.

This position is usually referenced as a percentage of mean aerodynamic chord (or a location along the wing). The reason that is important as the relationship between Centre of Gravity and Centre of Pressure (where the lift acts through on the wing) means that a moment is produced between the two that needs to be countered by using the tailplane.

The pilots use this position to adjust the trim of the tailplane to ensure the correct control forces are used to rotate the plane off the runway.

Of course during the flight as fuel is burned off, the C of G moves and it must always be within the limits to which the tailplane can control the pitch.

(A basic explanation of how it works, but covers most of it)

 
 
 
 


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  # 2260461 18-Jun-2019 19:13
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neb: The planes there already have to be heavily structurally reinforced to carry Americans, so I guess this also means you can pile in more carry-on than you should.

 

 

neb: They don't need to, the aircraft has sensors built in to record weight, and weight distribution. I've been on flights where the captain asked passengers to be relocated in order to balance the plane.

 

Where do you get your information from or do you just make it up?

 

The aircraft that operate in the USA are built to the same structural standards as those for any other country. They are not heavily structurally reinforced to carry Americans.

 

The aircraft don't have sensors to record weight distribution. The calculations are done either by a computer based loadsheet system or in the event that happened to fail done manually. One common reason for asking passengers to be reseated is the online check in system. Passenger can choose their seating which can result in a load distribution that isn't acceptable.





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  # 2260463 18-Jun-2019 19:26
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one day that thin piece of ply between someone and the luggage above them will give way.... then people will realise you cant carry your whole life in the overhead locker. 


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  # 2260467 18-Jun-2019 19:36
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Technofreak:

The aircraft that operate in the USA are built to the same structural standards as those for any other country. They are not heavily structurally reinforced to carry Americans.

 

 

Whoosh.

 

 

The aircraft don't have sensors to record weight distribution. The calculations are done either by a computer based loadsheet system or in the event that happened to fail done manually. One common reason for asking passengers to be reseated is the online check in system. Passenger can choose their seating which can result in a load distribution that isn't acceptable.

 

 

@empacher48 already described how it's done, just in more detail than my half a line of comment. I assumed it would have moved to pressure sensors in the struts by now (based on reading about it more than a decade ago), but it looks like it's still being done the traditional way.

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  # 2260629 19-Jun-2019 07:12
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sbiddle:

 

frankv:

 

If it were really about aircraft weight and balance as per @empacher48, they would weigh each passenger.

 

 

They do.

 

It's a pretty regular thing around the world to establish base weight for passengers. Here in NZ CAA do big surveys every couple of years for airlines.

 

Weight and balance is important for aircraft - it's why every checked bag is weighted, and why they're then loaded in set areas of the aircraft. On some aircraft depending on loadings you may also find some seats blocked off or passengers moved.

 

 

Right. But my point was that a 100g in the carry-on baggage is a rounding error compared to the weight of the passenger, which they don't actually weigh. They just use an average weight, so the entire 7kg is (in my case) less than the error in the actual vs assumed weight of the passenger.

 

 


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  # 2260644 19-Jun-2019 08:03
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frankv:


Right. But my point was that a 100g in the carry-on baggage is a rounding error compared to the weight of the passenger, which they don't actually weigh. They just use an average weight, so the entire 7kg is (in my case) less than the error in the actual vs assumed weight of the passenger.


 



But where do you draw the line? 7kg? 7.1kg? 7.125kg?

Our surveys show the average weight of hand baggage in our 2018 survey was 6.89kg per passenger. The largest recorded was 36.2kg.

Really, who wants to carry anymore than a small backpack and a handbag or camera with them on board? I find it a pain in the proverbial when I have to passenger somewhere with my overnight bag and flight bag with me.



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  # 2260805 19-Jun-2019 11:31
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empacher48: Really, who wants to carry anymore than a small backpack and a handbag or camera with them on board? I find it a pain in the proverbial when I have to passenger somewhere with my overnight bag and flight bag with me.

 

People with kids 😅

 

 

 

---

 

on a serious note its so easy to reach 7kg with essentials

 

1. you must need at least 2days worth of clothing in case your checked in baggage is delayed - 2-3 kg( if domestic travel atleast 1 day worth of clothing)

 

2. general items - chargers , toothbrush etc etc -500gm

 

3. A camera with lens - easy 2kg- not necessary because these days we have better phones

 

3. A laptop with brick charger- easy 3-4kg- individual preference but could be requirement for some.

 

4. weight of the bag itself and something to eat/medicines if you have dietary restrictions. 1-2 kg

 

 

 

The limit hasn't changed for quiet a few years but our habits and requirements have and so does the technology and pplanes.

 

Isnt it time for airlines to rethink the baggage allowance. ?


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  # 2260811 19-Jun-2019 11:47
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Having traveled reasonably often for both work and recreation over the last couple of years, I don't know why so many people cram so much into their carry-on baggage.

 

 

Travelling to Europe for 3 weeks, my carry-on with laptop, charger, change of clothes, noise cancelling headphones, battery pack, snacks etc... was only 6.8Kg. The US in February was 6.5Kg

 

 

Heading to Australia with the family earlier this year was 6Kg, this is coming from a genuine boy scout who is prepared for most eventualities.

 

 

Day trips for work around the country, or even overnight ~ 4 - 5.5 kg in general, depends on if I want to fit my rain jacket or umbrella.

 

 

Once it gets to a 55 litre tramping pack, bedroll and a front pack, (as I saw on Qantas on the way to Aus), things are getting a bit carried away. Cabin baggage is supposed to be what you require for the trip itself to get you from point A to B with a bit of leeway. Personally even suitcase carry-on bothers me, but I carry a streamlined backpack that fits perfectly on it's side overhead and could fit 2 of them in the space of a carry-on roller case.

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  # 2260825 19-Jun-2019 12:05
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geekbhaji:

 

The limit hasn't changed for quiet a few years but our habits and requirements have and so does the technology and pplanes.

 

Isnt it time for airlines to rethink the baggage allowance. ?

 

 

There is only so much space and weight capacity within the cabin. Where will the extra allowance fit?

 

The other issue is the aircraft are certified to a maximum weight. Any extra weight allowance in the carry allowance on means there has to be a reduction elsewhere. If there was any increase in the carry on allowance be prepared for an increase in ticket prices. The extra weight chewed up by an increase in the carry on allowance is less room in the hold for revenue earning freight etc.

 

Airlines are very weight conscious. Air New Zealand uses dehumidifiers to remove excess water from the fuselage. One reason this was done was to reduce weight. Also several years ago they removed the in flight magazine from the long haul flights to save weight.

 

Personally 7 kg is ample and that includes room for my 'toys'.





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