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  #2517854 6-Jul-2020 10:14
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sbiddle:

 

Based on your flights examples I think the point I'm making is lost on you.

 

I chose two very specific flights and prices for my comparison - the cheapest possible flexible LAX-EWR on UA (M class) and the cheapest possible AKL-AKL on Air NZ (H class).  The key thing is that these are the two cheapest flexible fares that are available on those two routes, so are one of the few ways you can compare pricing across different airlines due to their differences in fare structures. Sure your example shows the US flights being cheaper because they're not comparing comparable fare levels. On a typical Air NZ domestic flight for example there are 14 different booking classes (at different prices).

 

And yes I am saying Air NZ (along with most other airlines) have never need to provide you a refund because of a weather disrupt unless you have a ticket that has fare rules that offers refunds. If you think this is "morally reprehensible" did you raise this during the reviews of the CAA act in both 2014 and 2018 when they sought public comments? Everybody seems to have a view on this right now, which raises the questions of why nobody really seemed to think this was a problem previously.

 

 

But why are you choosing fully refundable tickets? This specific topic is about non-refundable tickets, and the need for US/EU type protection.  You said flights are more expensive in the US because of such protections - I have shown 2 examples [the first I looked at] where that is not true, and in my opinion it is not.  Europe is a prime example of this also.

When I asked you about Air NZ I specifically asked if the normal practice was to not refund, not whether the legislation required it.  I think you know that past behaviour by Air NZ was to refund when requested.  The current situation shows we have a real lack of teeth within our legislation as far as consumer protection.  

I also dont think you are being very fair to suggest nobody can assert an opinion if they didn't make submissions at select committee hearings years ago. Tens of thousands were not affected by the legislation previously, and people have thousands of dollars tied up in airlines through no fault of their own.  I personally have received refunds from Air NZ and US/Europe based airlines 100% because of the US DOT legislation and no other reason.  If my flights had been through Asia I would not.  I think we should have the protections within our act.


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  #2517866 6-Jul-2020 10:40
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itxtme:

 

But why are you choosing fully refundable tickets?

 

 

For the exact reason I explained. I wanted to compare apples with apples, not apples with a pear, to show that flying in the US is not a particularly cheap, and that placing further financial burdens on airlines (particularly in the next ~3-4 years) is not a good idea. The industry is going to suffer a lot more pain before things get better.

 

 

I also dont think you are being very fair to suggest nobody can assert an opinion if they didn't make submissions at select committee hearings years ago. Tens of thousands were not affected by the legislation previously, and people have thousands of dollars tied up in airlines through no fault of their own

 

 

But Air NZ (nor any other airline operating in NZ, nor most of the world) has never been required to refund for any situation where the disruption was beyond their control. This is something that would have affected tens of thousands of people in NZ every time a weather disrupt occur, and yet when people had the opportunity to submit their ideas for updating what is a very old piece of legislation there didn't seem to be a rush of people wanting things changed. Yes under some circumstances where there were disrupts Air NZ may have offered refunds rather than credits, but the law does not require that.

 

Where should things stop? Should Air NZ be forced to offer a hotel and meals for every single person on every single domestic flight that suffers a delay through no fault of their own? The costs of doing this would be huge.

 

I know plenty of people who have pretty significant Air NZ credits into the thousands of dollars (myself included) and I helped a number of people successfully get refunds long before the mainstream media even became aware of the DOT and EU policies. I just fundamentally don't agree with those policies.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #2534615 4-Aug-2020 16:42
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They should. I do not really see why we should have worse terms than the US or EU.

 

 

 

My wife and I have already decided we won't use them for international flights again. They were never the cheapest by a long margin and with this sort of service (I use the term loosely) the alternatives look even more appealing.

 

 

 

I will be interested to see what happens with the credits when they find that nobody can fly anywhere international by the end of 2021 and they are still holding what must be millions of other people's dollars.

 

 

 

They have over $7,000 of our money - we can get 100 $69 trips to Auckland, I suppose...

 

 






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  #2534616 4-Aug-2020 16:44
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BlinkyBill:

 

As sbiddle says, plane tickets are covered by the Civil Aviation Act. I don’t understand why anyone would buy a non-refundable ticket and then expect a refund? If the Act was amended to make refunds mandatory, then the price of tickets would ... wait for it ... increase to the current cost of non-refundable tickets. If you want to pay those prices, just buy a refundable ticket now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Presumably because in places like the US and EU, it matters not what class of ticket you have - if the airline cannot deliver the service you paid for, you get refunded.








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  #2534747 4-Aug-2020 18:28
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Seems the majority agree, refunds should be mandatory if an airline cancels a flight, rightly so. I had two return tickets to Europe for my wife and I booked with Lufthansa from NZ, I am so grateful that Lufthansa were obliged to provide a refund because what would we do with 3.5k worth of Lufthansa vouchers to be used in the next 12 months? Lufthansa could pull out of NZ altogether, then what?

 

Singapore Airlines are leading by example, they are refunding cancelled flights (even the ones they are not obliged to).

 

Anyone who supports vouchers only for those of whom want a refund should put themselves in a similar position, imagine buying a car from a car dealer, then he tells you that import was canceled and instead of giving your money back he gives you a voucher, and all he has in his yards are cars you have no use for?

 

How about buying a TV online from The Warehouse, being told they no longer stock it, and only getting a voucher as re-reimbursement?

 

To those of you who would think this would have been brought in without a pandemic possible should look at the outcome of a recent European parliament ruling, Germany wanted to be able to allow airlines to be relieved of their obligations to provide refunds as the pandemic is some unprecedented, and the Europena parliment did not allow it, sighting consumer rights  


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  #2534751 4-Aug-2020 18:35
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David321:

 

Seems the majority agree, refunds should be mandatory if an airline cancels a flight, rightly so. I had two return tickets to Europe for my wife and I booked with Lufthansa from NZ, I am so grateful that Lufthansa were obliged to provide a refund because what would we do with 3.5k worth of Lufthansa vouchers to be used in the next 12 months? Lufthansa could pull out of NZ altogether, then what?

 

Singapore Airlines are leading by example, they are refunding cancelled flights (even the ones they are not obliged to).

 

Anyone who supports vouchers only for those of whom want a refund should put themselves in a similar position, imagine buying a car from a car dealer, then he tells you that import was canceled and instead of giving your money back he gives you a voucher, and all he has in his yards are cars you have no use for?

 

How about buying a TV online from The Warehouse, being told they no longer stock it, and only getting a voucher as re-reimbursement?

 

To those of you who would think this would have been brought in without a pandemic possible should look at the outcome of a recent European parliament ruling, Germany wanted to be able to allow airlines to be relieved of their obligations to provide refunds as the pandemic is some unprecedented, and the Europena parliment did not allow it, sighting consumer rights  

 

 

 

 

There are a lot of people who seem prepared to cut Air NZ a lot of slack!








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  #2534760 4-Aug-2020 19:02
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Geektastic:

David321:


Seems the majority agree, refunds should be mandatory if an airline cancels a flight, rightly so. I had two return tickets to Europe for my wife and I booked with Lufthansa from NZ, I am so grateful that Lufthansa were obliged to provide a refund because what would we do with 3.5k worth of Lufthansa vouchers to be used in the next 12 months? Lufthansa could pull out of NZ altogether, then what?


Singapore Airlines are leading by example, they are refunding cancelled flights (even the ones they are not obliged to).


Anyone who supports vouchers only for those of whom want a refund should put themselves in a similar position, imagine buying a car from a car dealer, then he tells you that import was canceled and instead of giving your money back he gives you a voucher, and all he has in his yards are cars you have no use for?


How about buying a TV online from The Warehouse, being told they no longer stock it, and only getting a voucher as re-reimbursement?


To those of you who would think this would have been brought in without a pandemic possible should look at the outcome of a recent European parliament ruling, Germany wanted to be able to allow airlines to be relieved of their obligations to provide refunds as the pandemic is some unprecedented, and the Europena parliment did not allow it, sighting consumer rights  



 



Easy to do when its not your money that has essentially been stolen. Who gets the interest that is earnt on the money that is sitting in limbo? What happens to those who may have a medical condition develop meaning they can not fly? What about those who were flying to Argentina where Air New Zealand have recently decided not to fly to anymore. People may defend Air New Zealand saying they are making special allowances but the fact is if you have paid for service which can no longer be provided you should be entitled to a refund, air NZ have dictated their own rules here which is completely unfair. What would happen if I bought a ticket and could not travel due to something beyond my control? Air nz would keep the money and tell me to buy another ticket that's what!

There are a lot of people who seem prepared to cut Air NZ a lot of slack!


 
 
 
 


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  #2534775 4-Aug-2020 19:37
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David321:

 

Seems the majority agree, refunds should be mandatory if an airline cancels a flight, rightly so. I had two return tickets to Europe for my wife and I booked with Lufthansa from NZ, I am so grateful that Lufthansa were obliged to provide a refund because what would we do with 3.5k worth of Lufthansa vouchers to be used in the next 12 months? Lufthansa could pull out of NZ altogether, then what?

 

 

Lufthansa don't fly to NZ so could never pull out. Providing Lufthansa are flying somewhere in the world you'd always be able to buy a ticket from NZ to fly on them, and on LH codeshare flights to and from NZ.

 

 


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  #2534779 4-Aug-2020 19:48
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Geektastic:

 

They have over $7,000 of our money - we can get 100 $69 trips to Auckland, I suppose...

 

 

Well probably 85 trips once they've paid GST...




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  #2534840 4-Aug-2020 20:37
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sbiddle:

David321:


Seems the majority agree, refunds should be mandatory if an airline cancels a flight, rightly so. I had two return tickets to Europe for my wife and I booked with Lufthansa from NZ, I am so grateful that Lufthansa were obliged to provide a refund because what would we do with 3.5k worth of Lufthansa vouchers to be used in the next 12 months? Lufthansa could pull out of NZ altogether, then what?



Lufthansa don't fly to NZ so could never pull out. Providing Lufthansa are flying somewhere in the world you'd always be able to buy a ticket from NZ to fly on them, and on LH codeshare flights to and from NZ.


 



That's what I meant, they may drop their code share flights from NZ, imagine if i had a voucher for them and that happened.

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  #2534855 4-Aug-2020 21:16
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David321:

 


That's what I meant, they may drop their code share flights from NZ, imagine if i had a voucher for them and that happened.

 

As long as LH and NZ are part of Star Alliance that will simply never happen. Even if something were to were to happen to *A it's still unlikely that would change because you can still ticket across many different airlines, even if they're not part of the same alliance - ie booking a ticket on Air NZ on their 086 ticket stock and flying BA from various North America and Asian destinations through to London.

 

 


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  #2541104 14-Aug-2020 15:15
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David321:

 

Singapore Airlines are leading by example, they are refunding cancelled flights (even the ones they are not obliged to).

 

 

That's interesting. I think that, to be safe, if I have a choice of flights next time I travel internationally then I will book Singapore Airlines over Air NZ. Even if I have to pay a bit more for the ticket. As it seems clear that SA is prepared to behave ethically and do the right thing, and Air NZ isn't. So at least I would have confidence that I would either get my flight or get my money back.

 

Air NZ has gone on my "avoid unless there is no alternative" list after their behavior on this issue. Which pretty much means that I will only use it for domestic legs of flights, unless there is a truly compelling reason not to.


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