fly Jetstar, sit at your assigned seat or get tasered

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#3053312 22-Mar-2023 14:22

The man has a lawyer. Let’s see what comes out of the official investigation and witness accounts.

Four cops all firing their tasers at one unarmed man sitting next to a wife and baby is overkill. Bad enough firing one let alone four into him. What if one or two misfired in the cuffufle and hit the baby, it would have probably killed it.

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Senecio

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#3053313 22-Mar-2023 14:25

Rikkitic:

I didn't say it was. I said you can choose to ease someone into compliance by persuading them gently, or you can come in all macho with guns blazing and overwhelm them with superior force. I guess some cops still get off on that. At least they didn't restrict his breathing.

The AFP will only use "superior force" after they have tried and failed with gentle persuasion. I have no sympathy for the passenger in this case.

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#3053317 22-Mar-2023 14:28

Rikkitic:

That's pretty judgemental coming from you Mike. How do you know he was an idiot?

He refused a direction instruction from cabin crew and AFP, therefore he is an idiot.

MikeB4

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#3053318 22-Mar-2023 14:28

Eva888: The man has a lawyer. Let’s see what comes out of the official investigation and witness accounts.

Four cops all firing their tasers at one unarmed man sitting next to a wife and baby is overkill. Bad enough firing one let alone four into him. What if one or two misfired in the cuffufle and hit the baby, it would have probably killed it.

Has it been confirmed that four Tasers were fired?

johno1234

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#3053321 22-Mar-2023 14:43

Linux:
Rikkitic:

I'm sure you would be pleased if the uncooperative passenger was an autistic teenager who panics when spoken to by strangers and the police shot him. That would have taught him a lesson!

Don't go twisting things this is not the case here!

This is *probably* not the case here. We don't really know because we were not there and are relying on how it was reported. Perhaps English was not his first language. Perhaps he did indeed have some sort of emotional or intellectual or other issue.

It is quite reasonable to have a discussion on "how could the staff and police resolved this issue better and without it escalating to violence and disturbing all the other passengers".

Eva888

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#3053324 22-Mar-2023 14:57

I believe shots are recorded on these guns. Two five second shots come from one trigger pull unless they keep their finger on the trigger in which case there are more.

In the situation of a plane cabin's narrow passage with five police the shots would have been almost point blank range with hands and bodies in a confined space. People have been killed or maimed by tasers. It’s not an appropriate place to use such a weapon nor is the 'crime' serious enough.

Five officers could have easily slapped handcuffs on him and taken him off the plane without endangering his life or risking misfiring on those around him. Your father with a heart condition could have been sitting in the seat next to him.

I am not disputing the compliance aspect. There are removals, fines, bans and other methods of punishment for non compliance.

Rikkitic

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#3053326 22-Mar-2023 15:01

MikeB4:

Has it been confirmed that four Tasers were fired?

At least two media reports state this as well as the individual himself.

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Dingbatt

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#3053327 22-Mar-2023 15:07

I’ve watched the Aussie news on this a couple of times. The passenger claimed he “had done nothing wrong”, but have you ever heard the announcement “stow your cabin baggage, either in the overhead locker, or under the seat in front of you. Take your allocated seat….”

Apart from weight and balance considerations there are also rows where families with infants on laps aren’t seated. This can be because they are exit rows or the configuration of the emergency oxygen masks is such that there isn’t a spare mask for an infant above that row. I don’t know if that is relevant in this instance (it definitely wasn’t an exit row - I checked).

The video only showed from when a rather underconfident (imo) flight attendant asked the family to disembark. From that point on, regardless of whether he felt he had done nothing wrong, his non compliance put him in the wrong. It didn’t show the interaction that took place prior to that.

There are many occasions during an air journey where you just must ‘suck it up’ and comply. No matter your opinion of your own self importance, you are virtually powerless.
In the same way as someone who gets detained for making a “bomb joke” to AvSec or crew, or turns up at the aircraft door intoxicated and gets refused boarding, I bet this guy wishes he had just ‘sucked it up’ and complained later, commenting “he will never fly Jetstar again”.

I’m not going to comment on the level of force used by the AFP officers in removing the man.

@Eva888 Part of the “doors closed” thing you may have been told by Flight Attendants (I think they finished being stewards when the flying boats were retired 😊), is that until that time there is a chance standby passengers may be loaded at the last minute and allocated that seat you coveted. If you move seats (with FA approval) that still has to be communicated to the cockpit and the load sheet amended. For aircraft trim reasons, your request may be refused.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

MikeB4

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#3053343 22-Mar-2023 15:19

Eva888: I believe shots are recorded on these guns. Two five second shots come from one trigger pull unless they keep their finger on the trigger in which case there are more.

In the situation of a plane cabin's narrow passage with five police the shots would have been almost point blank range with hands and bodies in a confined space. People have been killed or maimed by tasers. It’s not an appropriate place to use such a weapon nor is the 'crime' serious enough.

Five officers could have easily slapped handcuffs on him and taken him off the plane without endangering his life or risking misfiring on those around him. Your father with a heart condition could have been sitting in the seat next to him.

I am not disputing the compliance aspect. There are removals, fines, bans and other methods of punishment for non compliance.

Without knowing the aircraft model and configuration however aircraft aisles are very narrow and barely wide enough for two persons to walk passed each other. Even for a purpose made aisle wheel chair it is a very tight fit. It would be very difficult for more than one office to apply cuffs to a non compliant individual, to get five officers around the individual would be next to impossible. Cuff despite what the cop movies show are slow and awkward to apply in a safe manner.

Police are not just handed a taser to use without sufficient training and use them only when required and safely.

Kyanar

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#3053353 22-Mar-2023 15:42

Rikkitic:

At least two media reports state this as well as the individual himself.

The media reports are almost certainly quoting the individual, which makes that particular fact very much in doubt. The Taser devices do log each time they are used, and police will have Axon BWC footage as they are required to turn them on for any use of force encounter.

Dingbatt:

@Eva888 Part of the “doors closed” thing you may have been told by Flight Attendants (I think they finished being stewards when the flying boats were retired 😊), is that until that time there is a chance standby passengers may be loaded at the last minute and allocated that seat you coveted. If you move seats (with FA approval) that still has to be communicated to the cockpit and the load sheet amended. For aircraft trim reasons, your request may be refused.

There's also the (rather dark) reasoning that if a tragedy should strike during takeoff and landing, they are better able to identify remains.

Jase2985

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#3053356 22-Mar-2023 15:47

@Eva888 please stop saying shot, its not a gun its a tazer.

say he was tazed 5 times or 5 seconds or what ever but not "shot" please.

it appears tazers came out because he was starting to struggle putting officers in a position of being harmed. Police follow a "Force Continuum" of escalating force. and if they give you a threat, "sir i need you to stand up and get off the plane or ill taze you" you get one more warning then you get tazed. if you threaten them with force (usually one level above their level) you are suppose to follow through unless the situation de-escalates.

If you have been on a plane you will know there is no way 4-5 cops would be able to get close enough to handcuff him especially if he started to struggle.

The simple fact of the matter is he chose not to comply with orders of multiple airline staff and this was the end result.

Kyanar

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#3053364 22-Mar-2023 16:00

Dingbatt:

There are many occasions during an air journey where you just must ‘suck it up’ and comply. No matter your opinion of your own self importance, you are virtually powerless.
In the same way as someone who gets detained for making a “bomb joke” to AvSec or crew, or turns up at the aircraft door intoxicated and gets refused boarding, I bet this guy wishes he had just ‘sucked it up’ and complained later, commenting “he will never fly Jetstar again”.

He's certainly right there - I imagine he's on Qantas Group's "no-fly list" now.

MikeB4:

Without knowing the aircraft model and configuration however aircraft aisles are very narrow and barely wide enough for two persons to walk passed each other. Even for a purpose made aisle wheel chair it is a very tight fit. It would be very difficult for more than one office to apply cuffs to a non compliant individual, to get five officers around the individual would be next to impossible. Cuff despite what the cop movies show are slow and awkward to apply in a safe manner.

I would say the flight in question was JQ977, based on the Perth to Melbourne route and that FR24 says the flight actually departed on Saturday at 19:15, when its scheduled departure was 17:35. This means a flight scheduled to arrive at 12:05am in Melbourne actually only landed at somewhere around 1:09am. I'm guessing other passengers would not have been pleased.

That aircraft is an A320-232. That's a single aisle 3-3 all economy narrowbody configuration. I wouldn't call the aisle wide on one of those.

empacher48

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#3053365 22-Mar-2023 16:05

Press release from the AFP directly:

https://www.afp.gov.au/news-media/media-releases/airline-passenger-charged-assault-and-unruly-behaviour

alasta

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#3053366 22-Mar-2023 16:05

People who refuse to follow crew instructions pose a risk to other passengers and should not be permitted to fly.

Rikkitic

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#3053372 22-Mar-2023 16:15

Jase2985:

@Eva888 please stop saying shot, its not a gun its a tazer.

say he was tazed 5 times or 5 seconds or what ever but not "shot" please.

it appears tazers came out because he was starting to struggle putting officers in a position of being harmed. Police follow a "Force Continuum" of escalating force. and if they give you a threat, "sir i need you to stand up and get off the plane or ill taze you" you get one more warning then you get tazed. if you threaten them with force (usually one level above their level) you are suppose to follow through unless the situation de-escalates.

If you have been on a plane you will know there is no way 4-5 cops would be able to get close enough to handcuff him especially if he started to struggle.

The simple fact of the matter is he chose not to comply with orders of multiple airline staff and this was the end result.

According to Wikipedia, the first Taser was a gun. It is also spelled with an S, not a Z. The name is an acronym, derived from a series of boy's action novels from the early 20th century. The early books were badly written, saturated with the racism and prejudices of the time, incredibly ignorant, and enormously popular. TASER stands for Thomas A. Swift, the hero of the books, plus Electric Rifle.

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