Gays and Marriage

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#667412 4-Aug-2012 12:08

And that is the thing here - people are airing their own person opinions and beliefs, which are not necessarily any more right or wrong than other peoples. Some people are trying to say that certain things are not a right, but then when it comes down to it now the way we have things now are not a right either - people might think they are in their own worlds/communities/circles, but in the bigger picture nope. Most of us here are part of "Western Culture" and a lot of the things we believe in, or take as granted or being correct don't have those beliefs upheld by other cultures, just like Western Culture does not necessary believe in things in those other cultures.

Everyone is different in some way, we are all individuals and there is no mould.

None of us are God, Gods or other higher beings and as such everything here must be taken with a grain )or more) of salt.

The key words here are tolerance and understanding. Everyone should be able to understand this - by a lot of people fail to grasp it. That is the individuals issue - not the rest of ours.

Live in peace and harmony with tolerance and understanding and then we all get along.

ETA - hell, we might find out one day that we are part of something much, much bigger - other beings living out there in amongst the stars... where would be stand then!

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freitasm

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#667414 4-Aug-2012 12:11

BraaiGuy: Many people in our society are born with strong feelings for young children too, including feelings for young kids of the same sex. Sorry all unacceptable.

This is unacceptable because these people are preying on young children who can't yet discern motive/intentions, and based their consent on trust - trust that can be easily obtained by methods that manipulate the child.

We are talking about consenting adults here, so don't bring the children into this discussion.

Kyanar

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#667415 4-Aug-2012 12:13

BraaiGuy: As I have tried to say before. Gay Marriage is not a right. There is no such thing as Gay Marriage in my book. Marriage is man/woman.

Wrong. Marriage is a right under Article 16 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Combined with Article 2 of the UDHR, which states that everyone has the right to be treated equally, regardless of their age, sex, race, language, birth, or other status, it is clear that Same-sex Marriage IS a right.

Klipspringer

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#667420 4-Aug-2012 12:25

freitasm:
BraaiGuy: Many people in our society are born with strong feelings for young children too, including feelings for young kids of the same sex. Sorry all unacceptable.

This is unacceptable because these people are preying on young children who can't yet discern motive/intentions, and based their consent on trust - trust that can be easily obtained by methods that manipulate the child.

We are talking about consenting adults here, so don't bring the children into this discussion.

I said nothing about people acting out on their sexual desires. Sadly this is sometimes the case but I'm talking about the way they were maybe born. Its the same thing is it not? Thank goodness most don't act on their strong feelings.

Kyanar:
BraaiGuy: As I have tried to say before. Gay Marriage is not a right. There is no such thing as Gay Marriage in my book. Marriage is man/woman.

Wrong. Marriage is a right under Article 16 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Combined with Article 2 of the UDHR, which states that everyone has the right to be treated equally, regardless of their age, sex, race, language, birth, or other status, it is clear that Same-sex Marriage IS a right.

Yes you hundred percent correct. Everyone has the right to marriage in this country. If they don't want a normal marriage well then maybe marriage is not an option.

Just my view.

Kyanar

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#667421 4-Aug-2012 12:33

BraaiGuy: Yes you hundred percent correct. Everyone has the right to marriage in this country. If they don't want a normal marriage well then maybe marriage is not an option.

Just my view.

Your definition of "normal" is invalid. The UN clearly sets out that marriage is a right to all individuals, and further sets out that the rights apply to all, not just whoever BraaiGuy considers to be a valid individual. So not only is marriage an option for same sex couples, it is a human right which as a UN member state we must permit them.

Klipspringer

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#667422 4-Aug-2012 12:43

Kyanar:
BraaiGuy: Yes you hundred percent correct. Everyone has the right to marriage in this country. If they don't want a normal marriage well then maybe marriage is not an option.

Just my view.

Your definition of "normal" is invalid. The UN clearly sets out that marriage is a right to all individuals, and further sets out that the rights apply to all, not just whoever BraaiGuy considers to be a valid individual. So not only is marriage an option for same sex couples, it is a human right which as a UN member state we must permit them.

I think you wrong on the idea that the UN sets the standard and we just simply need to comply to Gay and Lesbian marriages. I see the UN taking a neutral stance on it, and its by no means something we "must permit" to.

The agencies of the United Nations recognize same-sex marriages if and only if the country of citizenship of the employees in question recognizes the marriage.

So its nothing to comply with as your post suggests ..

Kyanar

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#667424 4-Aug-2012 12:54

BraaiGuy:
I think you wrong on the idea that the UN sets the standard and we just simply need to comply to Gay and Lesbian marriages. I see the UN taking a neutral stance on it, and its by no means something we "must permit" to.

The agencies of the United Nations recognize same-sex marriages if and only if the country of citizenship of the employees in question recognizes the marriage.

So its nothing to comply with as your post suggests ..

Perhaps you should read the Declaration of Human Rights. It's quite clear that marriage is a human right, and that the human rights apply to all irrespective of their status (which includes their sexuality). The statement you refer to there simply means that the UN as an employer only recognises same-sex marriages if they employee's country does. And such a statement would be to accomodate those countries with abysmal human rights records such as Iran or Libya or Syria. Are you suggesting New Zealand is in the same category as Iran or Syria? Because I'd like to think New Zealand is better than that.

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#667425 4-Aug-2012 13:00

Alright, I see a lot of leaning on the argument that permitting homosexual marriage will change marriage for everybody - not just the homosexual community - therefore it is not just about the rights of the homosexual community. An excellent point. Please elaborate how heterosexual marriage will be impacted upon by permitting homosexual marriage.

What, precisely, will change for the vast majority of humans who are heterosexual and choose to be married at some point in their lives? How will their marriage contracts be harmed by enacting this legislation?

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#667426 4-Aug-2012 13:04

1080p: Alright, I see a lot of leaning on the argument that permitting homosexual marriage will change marriage for everybody - not just the homosexual community - therefore it is not just about the rights of the homosexual community. An excellent point. Please elaborate how heterosexual marriage will be impacted upon by permitting homosexual marriage.

What, precisely, will change for the vast majority of humans who are heterosexual and choose to be married at some point in their lives? How will their marriage contracts be harmed by enacting this legislation?

I keep wondering that also! WTF is the first thing that comes to mind.

I put it to you that it will not impact upon heterosexual marriage a all, but only on the psyche of some individuals who are currently in a heterosexual marriage.

Tolerance and understanding... tolerance and understanding.

KevinL

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#667428 4-Aug-2012 13:05

BraaiGuy: As I have tried to say before. Gay Marriage is not a right. There is no such thing as Gay Marriage in my book. Marriage is man/woman. So if the law changes, well then the definition of the word (And the way the world sees it), and the way our family see it still stays the same. The law will not force me to change my beliefs and the way I choose to bring my children up. There are many things in this world we don't agree with, things that are wrong and allowed, we don't have to choose to accept everything just because the options are there. NZ is a very liberal nation, just because there are options for my kids to go into any religion they like, should I support them becoming a Muslim? Its against our families principles and the way I'm bringing my children up.

Kyanar: And I do hate to say it, but I don't consider it good parenting to teach children that being gay is "wrong" or "unnatural". All that does is continue to spread the hatred and bigotry

Just your view. I accept that mine is different. And what you have described above is a perfect example as why Gay Marriage is wrong and will affect many normal heterosexual couples with families. I agree with your point. In the same way I will be correcting my children if they come home with the view that its OK because so and so is doing it. And yes if they go to school and tell those children that its wrong, good on them. Because thats how I'm raising my kids.

That's a fascinating philosophy - I applaud your honesty.

I'm curious - what would you think about a family bringing up their children to believe that, for example, interracial marriage was an abomination? Let's say this was based on deeply held personal beliefs, and this family feels (much like you do) that while there are things that are allowed, they don't have to accept everything.

Would you consider that intolerance?

What would you do if one of your kids came home and told you that they were gay?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just curious.

keewee01

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#667431 4-Aug-2012 13:08

BraaiGuy:
freitasm:
BraaiGuy: Many people in our society are born with strong feelings for young children too, including feelings for young kids of the same sex. Sorry all unacceptable.

This is unacceptable because these people are preying on young children who can't yet discern motive/intentions, and based their consent on trust - trust that can be easily obtained by methods that manipulate the child.

We are talking about consenting adults here, so don't bring the children into this discussion.

I said nothing about people acting out on their sexual desires. Sadly this is sometimes the case but I'm talking about the way they were maybe born. Its the same thing is it not? Thank goodness most don't act on their strong feelings.

Kyanar:
BraaiGuy: As I have tried to say before. Gay Marriage is not a right. There is no such thing as Gay Marriage in my book. Marriage is man/woman.

Wrong. Marriage is a right under Article 16 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Combined with Article 2 of the UDHR, which states that everyone has the right to be treated equally, regardless of their age, sex, race, language, birth, or other status, it is clear that Same-sex Marriage IS a right.

Yes you hundred percent correct. Everyone has the right to marriage in this country. If they don't want a normal marriage well then maybe marriage is not an option.

Just my view.

Normal - no such thing. We were taught and demonstrated that at secondary school.

One persons opinion/view of normal may not be the same as other peoples.

Skolink

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#667434 4-Aug-2012 13:15

Kyanar: that you are arguing that we should not let same sex couples marry because it would affect their legal status when one partner dies... I cannot believe you actually said that.

A agree that is unreasonable. Someone in a same-sex relationship should have every right to determine what happens to their stuff when they die. If they choose to leave it to their partner that is entirely up to them.

I would say however that it would not affect their legal status, since this automatic right of the bereaved partner is already afforded by a civil union (assuming they haven't written a will). So it's not a reason to redefine marriage.

Kyanar:
And to also argue that employers or whatever should not be required to treat those couples as what they are - married couples - I cannot see how this impacts upon you at all. I am honestly curious as to what your fundamental reasons are for claiming that.

People have argued that this law change will not [negatively] affect anyone else other than those in the same-sex relationship. This seems to me that this is would be an example of where someone would be forced to 'accept' that it a was a marriage and provide for it, even if they felt otherwise. Only a minor effect on the employer though, so not a particularly strong example.

In that position though (with the law as it is now), it would be tough. Not giving the same benefits to civil union (same-sex) couples as married couple would be just mean. To give the same benefits though would be to say 'I endorse their relationship', wouldn't it? What would be the correct way to handle it? I think to give the same benefits, without expressing your opposition. Probably anyone who cared what you thought would know already. But that is only applicable to the law as it is now.

Klipspringer

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#667442 4-Aug-2012 13:41

keewee01:

Normal - no such thing. We were taught and demonstrated that at secondary school.

One persons opinion/view of normal may not be the same as other peoples.

Go look up the definition of the word if you not familiar with it.

Its by no means the norm to be gay.

Kyanar:

It's quite clear that marriage is a human right, and that the human rights apply to all irrespective of their status (which includes their sexuality). The statement you refer to there simply means that the UN as an employer only recognises same-sex marriages if they employee's country does.

Yes and I think thats where it ends. Marriage is a human right. And everybody in New Zealand is entitled to it. Its how we define the word marriage, many people have different definitions. So no need to go around in circles here. My definition of marriage is not the same as others. I accept that.

KevinL:
I'm curious - what would you think about a family bringing up their children to believe that, for example, interracial marriage was an abomination? Let's say this was based on deeply held personal beliefs, and this family feels (much like you do) that while there are things that are allowed, they don't have to accept everything.

Would you consider that intolerance?

What would you do if one of your kids came home and told you that they were gay?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just curious.

Each family is different. So cant comment on other families who would go as far as not allowing their kids to have an interracial marriage. It still fits the definition of the word marriage so unsure why some have a problem with it.

LOL I was waiting for somebody to throw this question at me. If my kids arrived home and told be they were gay well so be it. But then they were were "born gay" as others have bluntly put it. My view is that the way a child is brought up is also one of the factors people turn out gay. At least I would know that my parenting was not a contributing factor to them ending up gay. They my kids and they have every right to live their life the way they like. But that still does not change my way of thinking that should they get married, its not really a proper marriage. But in the end they free to do what they want, and how they brought up in right now has a huge impact on the rest of their lives and how they turn out.

KevinL

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#667445 4-Aug-2012 13:53

BraaiGuy:
KevinL:
I'm curious - what would you think about a family bringing up their children to believe that, for example, interracial marriage was an abomination? Let's say this was based on deeply held personal beliefs, and this family feels (much like you do) that while there are things that are allowed, they don't have to accept everything.

Would you consider that intolerance?

What would you do if one of your kids came home and told you that they were gay?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just curious.

Each family is different. So cant comment on other families who would go as far as not allowing their kids to have an interracial marriage. It still fits the definition of the word marriage so unsure why some have a problem with it.

LOL I was waiting for somebody to throw this question at me. If my kids arrived home and told be they were gay well so be it. But then they were were "born gay" as others have bluntly put it. My view is that the way a child is brought up is also one of the factors people turn out gay. At least I would know that my parenting was not a contributing factor to them ending up gay. They my kids and they have every right to live their life the way they like. But that still does not change my way of thinking that should they get married, its not really a proper marriage. But in the end they free to do what they want, and how they brought up in right now has a huge impact on the rest of their lives and how they turn out.

I just think it's very interesting that you seem to be describing bringing up your children to believe that everything that isn't what you consider "normal" is wrong. In my mind all that is doing is perpetuating the cycle of intolerance.

On the other hand, it's a completely different scenario to bring up children to respect that there are people who don't necessarily fit with what your family considers to be "normal", but it's OK because it's their life, and that's how they choose to live it (its just not for you or your family).

I guess my point is that it's all well and good to dictate what is "normal" and "good" for your own family, but to teach others that anything different is "wrong" is intolerance, and isn't something that I could personally agree with. Forbidding your children from visiting the children of gay parents, as you've alluded to, seems a little bit sad to me.

tardtasticx

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#667447 4-Aug-2012 14:07

BraaiGuy:
Kyanar:
So, what you're saying is that they shouldn't have the right to marry, and that you should have the right to tell them what their rights are. I'm sorry, but I can't accept that.

As I have tried to say before. Gay Marriage is not a right. There is no such thing as Gay Marriage in my book. Marriage is man/woman. So if the law changes, well then the definition of the word (And the way the world sees it), and the way our family see it still stays the same. The law will not force me to change my beliefs and the way I choose to bring my children up. There are many things in this world we don't agree with, things that are wrong and allowed, we don't have to choose to accept everything just because the options are there. NZ is a very liberal nation, just because there are options for my kids to go into any religion they like, should I support them becoming a Muslim? Its against our families principles and the way I'm bringing my children up.

Kyanar: And I do hate to say it, but I don't consider it good parenting to teach children that being gay is "wrong" or "unnatural". All that does is continue to spread the hatred and bigotry

Just your view. I accept that mine is different. And what you have described above is a perfect example as why Gay Marriage is wrong and will affect many normal heterosexual couples with families. I agree with your point. In the same way I will be correcting my children if they come home with the view that its OK because so and so is doing it. And yes if they go to school and tell those children that its wrong, good on them. Because thats how I'm raising my kids.

You are an absolutely disgusting excuse for a parent and a human. You sicken me.
You're enforcing your views on your children who don't know any better, and they'll go into school and do the same because its what daddy wants. How is that even right? Thats horrible.
Imagine if I hated Maoris and I told my children to believe they aren't normal people, and they went to school and said the same? I'd be taken to court and all sorts, child would most likely be kicked out of the school, nothing good would come of it. That's exactly the same thing that you're doing, just substitute Maori with Homoesexual. What good can this possibly do for a child?

My parents were both raised in religious households, went to catholic schools etc. They didn't force anything on me. I chose my own path. I didn't want to be religious, I'm not racist, sexist, agest or anything. My parents not forcing views on me has made me who I am today and I thank them for it. Because without that I wouldn't have found the amazing guy I'm with today, who's Asian, same gender as me, and older than me. If they preached homophobic hate to me, I would have suppressed my feelings for guys, and not met this amazing guy. Imagine you're doing the same to your children. They could be gay for all you know, and they just wont tell you because they're too scared. This sort of thing can cause irreversible harm to a child, or anyone.

Parents are meant to teach their kids what the world is really like, just because you dont like the rest of us moving forward, doesnt mean you get to hold your kids back too.

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