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JWR

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  Reply # 1110123 17-Aug-2014 21:17
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KiwiNZ: NZ would be a better place if Dotcom left and took Slater and Hager with him


New Zealand would be a lot better place if more critical thinking was involved with our politics.

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  Reply # 1110127 17-Aug-2014 21:19
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Both Hager and Slater and their ilk are trying to pervert the course of democracy by diverting attention from policies and candidate suitability.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

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The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1110128 17-Aug-2014 21:21
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Kiwi, reading slaters communications can you explain which part of the book leads you to believe he is anything remotely like Hager ?


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  Reply # 1110133 17-Aug-2014 21:29
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networkn:
BarTender:
networkn: National don't really need to smear Labour, Labour seem intent on ensuring they aren't in power again (Thankfully) for a long time by simply opposing for the sake of it. They seem lost and confused and internally conflicted. Hardly who I consider reasonable to ru(i)n a country.


To be honest I expected better from you, not sure why but I did.

If you have been living in a country where the national dialogue has been directed via a few vicious bloggers that then gets picked up main stream media then it's quite easy to believe exactly what you have said. However if you actually try and read what's going on across the political divide you would see there is a very clear negative narrative going on lead by Slater. Something I have seen well before the book came out, however the book does clear up the depths it goes to.

Education is the best weapon against ignorance. You of all people I would have thought would understand that. Sadly I am wrong.


Me of all people? Do we know each other? 

My claims re Labour aren't based on what "a few bloggers" have reported, it's based on what is coming directly from Labour themselves. 


Lets not talk about National Debt, How the NZ Economy has been going, That the housing bubble in Auckland has been getting worse and affordability is unobtainable for the vast majority of people to name just a few. Plus our growing deprivation with the rise of 3rd world disease among our most vulnerable. 

In my view Bernard Hickey has it right that Personal Debt and climbing inflation are the biggest issue facing our country today, selling all the assets will just leave us all poorer now and well into the future.

But everything is going in the right direction right?





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  Reply # 1110138 17-Aug-2014 21:38
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BarTender:
networkn:
BarTender:
networkn: National don't really need to smear Labour, Labour seem intent on ensuring they aren't in power again (Thankfully) for a long time by simply opposing for the sake of it. They seem lost and confused and internally conflicted. Hardly who I consider reasonable to ru(i)n a country.


To be honest I expected better from you, not sure why but I did.

If you have been living in a country where the national dialogue has been directed via a few vicious bloggers that then gets picked up main stream media then it's quite easy to believe exactly what you have said. However if you actually try and read what's going on across the political divide you would see there is a very clear negative narrative going on lead by Slater. Something I have seen well before the book came out, however the book does clear up the depths it goes to.

Education is the best weapon against ignorance. You of all people I would have thought would understand that. Sadly I am wrong.


Me of all people? Do we know each other? 

My claims re Labour aren't based on what "a few bloggers" have reported, it's based on what is coming directly from Labour themselves. 


Lets not talk about National Debt, How the NZ Economy has been going, That the housing bubble in Auckland has been getting worse and affordability is unobtainable for the vast majority of people to name just a few. Plus our growing deprivation with the rise of 3rd world disease among our most vulnerable. 

But everything is going in the right direction right?




agree with you personally, but we should be focussing on the book and what it reveals and what that means in terms of the relationship between Nz'rs and their elected governments.
As much as it's hard to leave politics aside on this issue, other political parties will no doubt be engaged in this sort of behaviour "to a point" but this is quite extreme and the potential for loss of life is way way too close to be dismissed. I do wonder if this is actually what motivated Hager to publish. I hope direct democracy can sort a lot of these issues out, no reason why the public can not assist in the design and ideation of a more effective government structure that does not reward or even allow such relationships



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  Reply # 1110143 17-Aug-2014 21:51
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BarTender:
networkn:
BarTender:
networkn: National don't really need to smear Labour, Labour seem intent on ensuring they aren't in power again (Thankfully) for a long time by simply opposing for the sake of it. They seem lost and confused and internally conflicted. Hardly who I consider reasonable to ru(i)n a country.


To be honest I expected better from you, not sure why but I did.

If you have been living in a country where the national dialogue has been directed via a few vicious bloggers that then gets picked up main stream media then it's quite easy to believe exactly what you have said. However if you actually try and read what's going on across the political divide you would see there is a very clear negative narrative going on lead by Slater. Something I have seen well before the book came out, however the book does clear up the depths it goes to.

Education is the best weapon against ignorance. You of all people I would have thought would understand that. Sadly I am wrong.


Me of all people? Do we know each other? 

My claims re Labour aren't based on what "a few bloggers" have reported, it's based on what is coming directly from Labour themselves. 


Lets not talk about National Debt, How the NZ Economy has been going, That the housing bubble in Auckland has been getting worse and affordability is unobtainable for the vast majority of people to name just a few. Plus our growing deprivation with the rise of 3rd world disease among our most vulnerable. 

In my view Bernard Hickey has it right that Personal Debt and climbing inflation are the biggest issue facing our country today, selling all the assets will just leave us all poorer now and well into the future.

But everything is going in the right direction right?


National Debt you could easily at least partially contribute to the huge amount of money the Christchurch Earthquake has drained from our coffers. The housing situation isn't new, was getting worse under Labour too. Affordability I don't believe is as bad as you might want to believe. I think people need to be realistic and start small, but they want iphones, ipads, new cars, etc etc, and 6 bedroom homes in Remuera and aren't prepared to sacrifice to get into property. Personal Debt isn't new either also an issue Labour faced. However, regardless of all of that, the bottom line is that this isn't the thread for that discussion.

I don't think the current Government is doing a bad job, certainly not as bad as the opposition would be doing if they were in power, and I am happy to let them have another 3 years and see where we are at.

JWR

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  Reply # 1110156 17-Aug-2014 22:08
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KiwiNZ: Both Hager and Slater and their ilk are trying to pervert the course of democracy by diverting attention from policies and candidate suitability.


No! Absolutely not!

They can both have their say and they entitled to it.

I think the issue is more about those in power and what they are doing with it.

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  Reply # 1110173 17-Aug-2014 22:14
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I think a lot of people are taking this as a Left vs Right thing, but I don't think that's a very good way to look at it. The book doesn't endorse Labour, it's a certain faction inside the National Party that's carrying out all this crap, and we've got to remember that not all Nat MP's are a part in this.

@turnin I think this quote by him that I came across on here might shed some light. The piece itself is quite good and worth a read. Politics being obsessed with dirty tricks turns lots of people off politics entirely and hurts our democracy. That's the key message I think Hager is trying to spread.

The main importance of the book from my point of view is that it is a case study of how politics really works. How National Party politics works, but not only the National Party for some of it. And the reason I think that this is important is that, although we are lucky enough to live in a safe, stable democracy, we find many people, and especially younger people, dislike politics more and more. They dislike politicians, and don’t want to be involved -- leaving politics to the politicians, to the likes of Gerry Brownlee. This kind of discouragement and cynicism occurs for specific reasons. It’s a product of the way that people conduct politics. That’s the next huge value I see of people being exposed like this.

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  Reply # 1110174 17-Aug-2014 22:14
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JWR:
KiwiNZ: Both Hager and Slater and their ilk are trying to pervert the course of democracy by diverting attention from policies and candidate suitability.


No! Absolutely not!



Really? In the last 7 days how much space has been provided or dedicated to discussing the parties policies or intentions after the next election? How many pages has this thread used to discuss the same? Attention is being diverted from these issues
and all anyone is talking about is this book and the issues surrounding it.

JWR

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  Reply # 1110185 17-Aug-2014 22:30

networkn:
JWR:
KiwiNZ: Both Hager and Slater and their ilk are trying to pervert the course of democracy by diverting attention from policies and candidate suitability.


No! Absolutely not!



Really? In the last 7 days how much space has been provided or dedicated to discussing the parties policies or intentions after the next election? How many pages has this thread used to discuss the same? Attention is being diverted from these issues
and all anyone is talking about is this book and the issues surrounding it.


I think it is very good that anyone is discussing anything relating to the election.

So many people didn't vote last time.



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  Reply # 1110194 17-Aug-2014 22:58
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JWR:
networkn:
JWR:
KiwiNZ: Both Hager and Slater and their ilk are trying to pervert the course of democracy by diverting attention from policies and candidate suitability.


No! Absolutely not!



Really? In the last 7 days how much space has been provided or dedicated to discussing the parties policies or intentions after the next election? How many pages has this thread used to discuss the same? Attention is being diverted from these issues
and all anyone is talking about is this book and the issues surrounding it.


I think it is very good that anyone is discussing anything relating to the election.

So many people didn't vote last time.




You think this issue is going to make people MORE inclined to vote? I'd suggest based on conversations held people I know in the last few days, the opposite is actually true. 


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  Reply # 1110200 17-Aug-2014 23:07
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networkn:
You think this issue is going to make people MORE inclined to vote? I'd suggest based on conversations held people I know in the last few days, the opposite is actually true. 



http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/hager-allegations-unlikely-change-votes-poll-video-6058656 (skip to 1:30) this poll disagree with you.





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  Reply # 1110203 17-Aug-2014 23:15
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networkn:
You think this issue is going to make people MORE inclined to vote? I'd suggest based on conversations held people I know in the last few days, the opposite is actually true. 



Agree, this just turns people off voting. 



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  Reply # 1110206 17-Aug-2014 23:36
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This thread keeps getting dragged off in three directions regarding:
1) The author's personal personal political position
2) His credibility as a journalist
2) The legality and/or morality (or otherwise) of how the information was obtained.

To the first point, if he has done his job, this won't be relevant. If the facts are well researched and the sources reliable and verifiable, his own political stance won't matter. I have no doubt, based on his track record, that if this has been Labour or the Greens rather than National, the book would still have been written. The fact is, he didn't have data on other parties, the information he was given was about National. I see it largely pointless to debate this until some evidence comes to light that it is relevant (none yet).

To the second, Hagar has an impeccable reputation as an investigative journalist, with only those who he has exposed speaking against him (And even some who he has exposed have spoken in his favour as a journalist). As per the last point, I see this as largely pointless to debate until such time as evidence comes to light to suggest he is not a credible journalist.

To the third, and this is the most important. The legality or morality of how the information was obtained is a separate issue altogether. The fact of the matter is that it's out now - and the information should be assessed for what it is, not blindly written off simply because of how it was obtained. This also applies to the data National obtained from the Labour website - how it was obtained is a side issue, but once it's out - it would be ignorant to ignore the facts for what they are.

I have stared to read the book, and I encourage all of those here to do the same before drawing any conclusions. I am reading with an open mind and consciously trying to separate what is inference and what is fact. From what I have seen so far, the book has both. The inferences may be wrong, and may be explainable or dismissed - but I am already seeing hard evidence (direct quotes) that are simply very clear in what they are, and show what I consider unacceptable behaviour by those elected to represent us, and the people they choose to work with.




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  Reply # 1110213 17-Aug-2014 23:57
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I'm finding it pretty ironic that a book against attack politics is being used as an attack by politicians on each other.

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