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  Reply # 1110514 18-Aug-2014 14:26
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kiwitrc: Since you mention vote buying, the TaxPayers Union have a Bribe-o-Meter on their site showing how much tax payers are going to have to pay for the promises of the various parties. Currently only the Nats and Labour are up and they say they will add to it once policy is announced.


The TaxPayers union are an unashamedly partisan right-wing group and as such any information they publish should be treated with a grain of salt. 




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  Reply # 1110519 18-Aug-2014 14:29
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ajobbins:
kiwitrc: Since you mention vote buying, the TaxPayers Union have a Bribe-o-Meter on their site showing how much tax payers are going to have to pay for the promises of the various parties. Currently only the Nats and Labour are up and they say they will add to it once policy is announced.


The TaxPayers union are an unashamedly partisan right-wing group and as such any information they publish should be treated with a grain of salt. 


But left wing journalists should be treated as infallible and everything they say, be taken as absolute fact?


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1110520 18-Aug-2014 14:31
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networkn:
ajobbins:

Maybe you should try and hold your elected representatives to a higher standard?


How do you propose we do this? This type of thing has been going on as long as politics have been around.  It's not ideal, however, at the end of the day, given the period of time it's been going on, it would seem not much works by way of disincentive.


A change in attitude to not dismiss this as 'just politics these days' is a good start. National are relying on exactly that response to get away with what they have done. If people have a different attitude and this starts to have an effect on polling, we might see steps to clean things up.

So long as people are complacent about it - there is nothing to stop National (or indeed other parties) continuing to push the boundaries with this type of behaviour, and in fact it just encourages them to do it because they know they can get away with it.




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  Reply # 1110522 18-Aug-2014 14:32
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networkn: But left wing journalists should be treated as infallible and everything they say, be taken as absolute fact?


The TPU aren't journalists, they are a lobby group.

A good journalist will be able to write non-partisan stories based on balanced facts. Lobby groups generally don't hold themselves to the same standards.




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  Reply # 1110527 18-Aug-2014 14:34
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ajobbins:
networkn:
ajobbins:

Maybe you should try and hold your elected representatives to a higher standard?


How do you propose we do this? This type of thing has been going on as long as politics have been around.  It's not ideal, however, at the end of the day, given the period of time it's been going on, it would seem not much works by way of disincentive.


A change in attitude to not dismiss this as 'just politics these days' is a good start. National are relying on exactly that response to get away with what they have done. If people have a different attitude and this starts to have an effect on polling, we might see steps to clean things up.

So long as people are complacent about it - there is nothing to stop National (or indeed other parties) continuing to push the boundaries with this type of behaviour, and in fact it just encourages them to do it because they know they can get away with it.


Really? Yet this thing has been going on since Adam was a cowboy, so clearly that method just doesn't work. We could kick them out of Office but then the country would be being led by not only people who do the same thing, but who don't have a collective clue between them on how to go forward. 

Sure, it would be nice if this stuff doesn't happen, and if everything that has been said is true (Which I seriously doubt), then I'll be a little disappointed, but I still believe (firmly) the country is better served by the party in power, than the one in opposition.

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  Reply # 1110528 18-Aug-2014 14:34
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networkn:
ajobbins:
kiwitrc: Since you mention vote buying, the TaxPayers Union have a Bribe-o-Meter on their site showing how much tax payers are going to have to pay for the promises of the various parties. Currently only the Nats and Labour are up and they say they will add to it once policy is announced.


The TaxPayers union are an unashamedly partisan right-wing group and as such any information they publish should be treated with a grain of salt. 


But left wing journalists should be treated as infallible and everything they say, be taken as absolute fact?



I think a bit of balance would be nice "and from the extremely right wing group the bribe o meter" at least be open and honest about it
It's what part of the book was about David Farrar. He's right wing and runs the polls for national. But he should be open about who provides most of his salary rather than attempting to be independent right wing blogger.







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  Reply # 1110532 18-Aug-2014 14:36
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networkn: Really? Yet this thing has been going on since Adam was a cowboy, so clearly that method just doesn't work. We could kick them out of Office but then the country would be being led by not only people who do the same thing, but who don't have a collective clue between them on how to go forward. 

Sure, it would be nice if this stuff doesn't happen, and if everything that has been said is true (Which I seriously doubt), then I'll be a little disappointed, but I still believe (firmly) the country is better served by the party in power, than the one in opposition.


If one of the other parties takes a policy to the election that works to reduce this kind of behavior, then they will have my attention. And I'm sure I am not the only one.




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  Reply # 1110534 18-Aug-2014 14:38
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I cannot see how this issue can be solved with policy.

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  Reply # 1110536 18-Aug-2014 14:38
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ajobbins:
kiwitrc: Since you mention vote buying, the TaxPayers Union have a Bribe-o-Meter on their site showing how much tax payers are going to have to pay for the promises of the various parties. Currently only the Nats and Labour are up and they say they will add to it once policy is announced.


The TaxPayers union are an unashamedly partisan right-wing group and as such any information they publish should be treated with a grain of salt. 


So is Dr Michael Dunn not independent as they claim?



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  Reply # 1110541 18-Aug-2014 14:44
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kiwitrc: So is Dr Michael Dunn not independent as they claim?


Hard to say, hence my grain of salt comment. He's on the payroll of a lobby group which *potentially* could skew his impartiality. (Think scientific studies on the effect of cigarettes commissioned and paid for by tobacco companies)

I'd be more inclined to trust analysis done by the mainstream media, or at least a group that isn't politically aligned.




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  Reply # 1110542 18-Aug-2014 14:47
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ajobbins:
kiwitrc: So is Dr Michael Dunn not independent as they claim?


Hard to say, hence my grain of salt comment. He's on the payroll of a lobby group which *potentially* could skew his impartiality. (Think scientific studies on the effect of cigarettes commissioned and paid for by tobacco companies)

I'd be more inclined to trust analysis done by the mainstream media, or at least a group that isn't politically aligned.


Which group isnt politically aligned so I know who I can trust?

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  Reply # 1110543 18-Aug-2014 14:48
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kiwitrc:
ajobbins:
kiwitrc: So is Dr Michael Dunn not independent as they claim?


Hard to say, hence my grain of salt comment. He's on the payroll of a lobby group which *potentially* could skew his impartiality. (Think scientific studies on the effect of cigarettes commissioned and paid for by tobacco companies)

I'd be more inclined to trust analysis done by the mainstream media, or at least a group that isn't politically aligned.


Which group isnt politically aligned so I know who I can trust?


I thought the idea of mainstream media not being biased was quite amusing actually :) 



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  Reply # 1110545 18-Aug-2014 14:49
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ajobbins:
networkn: Really? Yet this thing has been going on since Adam was a cowboy, so clearly that method just doesn't work. We could kick them out of Office but then the country would be being led by not only people who do the same thing, but who don't have a collective clue between them on how to go forward. 

Sure, it would be nice if this stuff doesn't happen, and if everything that has been said is true (Which I seriously doubt), then I'll be a little disappointed, but I still believe (firmly) the country is better served by the party in power, than the one in opposition.


If one of the other parties takes a policy to the election that works to reduce this kind of behavior, then they will have my attention. And I'm sure I am not the only one.


Yah let's spend our time and money on this (Which wouldn't work anyway), and lets take attention away from Healthcare, Business Growth, Employment, and Transport. 

Those are real issues.

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  Reply # 1110553 18-Aug-2014 15:05
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ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: Yep, distracting from the real issues like the Greens dopey policy of lifting the top tax rate to 40% God help us if they get into a coalition, well good help the poor as unemployment will sky rocket.


What's wrong with a marginal tax rate of 40%? I pay 39% here in Oz and I'm not even on the top rate.


I don't believe in punishing people for getting off their butts and working hard




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  Reply # 1110554 18-Aug-2014 15:06
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Back on topic... (sort of)

This from Cameron Slater in an article "proving" Kim Dotcom was behind the hack http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/breaking-kim-dotcom-paymaster-hacker/


"We can assume that Labour deliberately chose “Vote Positive” as their election slogan in full knowledge that Hager manufactured Dotcom fed book would confirm everything for them."


And Slater/Key has been accusing Nicky Hager of making astronomical leaps. This is a joke.



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