Dirty Politics: Nicky Hager's New Book

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#1110558 18-Aug-2014 15:08

ajobbins:
kiwitrc: Since you mention vote buying, the TaxPayers Union have a Bribe-o-Meter on their site showing how much tax payers are going to have to pay for the promises of the various parties. Currently only the Nats and Labour are up and they say they will add to it once policy is announced.

The TaxPayers union are an unashamedly partisan right-wing group and as such any information they publish should be treated with a grain of salt.

Hager in yesterday's interview with Wallace Chapman on Nat Rad specifically mentioned the Taxpayers' Union as an example of astro-turfing. (And the claim in an earlier earlier that Hager's book is an example of astro-turfing simply shows that there's clearly a bit of confusion about what the term actually means. Again, an inability to separate one's views and politics from the wider issue me thinks...). Ironically, their own website states "The Taxpayers' Union is a grassroots activist group, dedicated to being the voice for Kiwi taxpayers"! (my emphasis).

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Ruphus

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#1110566 18-Aug-2014 15:18

networkn:
ajobbins:
networkn: Really? Yet this thing has been going on since Adam was a cowboy, so clearly that method just doesn't work. We could kick them out of Office but then the country would be being led by not only people who do the same thing, but who don't have a collective clue between them on how to go forward.

Sure, it would be nice if this stuff doesn't happen, and if everything that has been said is true (Which I seriously doubt), then I'll be a little disappointed, but I still believe (firmly) the country is better served by the party in power, than the one in opposition.

If one of the other parties takes a policy to the election that works to reduce this kind of behavior, then they will have my attention. And I'm sure I am not the only one.

Yah let's spend our time and money on this (Which wouldn't work anyway), and lets take attention away from Healthcare, Business Growth, Employment, and Transport.

Those are real issues.

Education is the real issue for me.

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#1110569 18-Aug-2014 15:24

Ruphus:
networkn:
ajobbins:
networkn: Really? Yet this thing has been going on since Adam was a cowboy, so clearly that method just doesn't work. We could kick them out of Office but then the country would be being led by not only people who do the same thing, but who don't have a collective clue between them on how to go forward.

Sure, it would be nice if this stuff doesn't happen, and if everything that has been said is true (Which I seriously doubt), then I'll be a little disappointed, but I still believe (firmly) the country is better served by the party in power, than the one in opposition.

If one of the other parties takes a policy to the election that works to reduce this kind of behavior, then they will have my attention. And I'm sure I am not the only one.

Yah let's spend our time and money on this (Which wouldn't work anyway), and lets take attention away from Healthcare, Business Growth, Employment, and Transport.

Those are real issues.

Education is the real issue for me.

Especially post graduate, they have been screwed badly by policy changes

networkn

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#1110570 18-Aug-2014 15:24

Ruphus:
networkn:
ajobbins:
networkn: Really? Yet this thing has been going on since Adam was a cowboy, so clearly that method just doesn't work. We could kick them out of Office but then the country would be being led by not only people who do the same thing, but who don't have a collective clue between them on how to go forward.

Sure, it would be nice if this stuff doesn't happen, and if everything that has been said is true (Which I seriously doubt), then I'll be a little disappointed, but I still believe (firmly) the country is better served by the party in power, than the one in opposition.

If one of the other parties takes a policy to the election that works to reduce this kind of behavior, then they will have my attention. And I'm sure I am not the only one.

Yah let's spend our time and money on this (Which wouldn't work anyway), and lets take attention away from Healthcare, Business Growth, Employment, and Transport.

Those are real issues.

Education is the real issue for me.

Yes I wasn't excluding it because I don't consider it important, I just listed the first few that came to mind.

Glassboy

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#1110581 18-Aug-2014 15:42

jonathan18:
Hager in yesterday's interview with Wallace Chapman on Nat Rad specifically mentioned the Taxpayers' Union as an example of astro-turfing. (And the claim in an earlier earlier that Hager's book is an example of astro-turfing simply shows that there's clearly a bit of confusion about what the term actually means. Again, an inability to separate one's views and politics from the wider issue me thinks...). Ironically, their own website states "The Taxpayers' Union is a grassroots activist group, dedicated to being the voice for Kiwi taxpayers"! (my emphasis).

Really, it perfectly matches the description that Hager gave on National radio, and the definition on Wikipedia.

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#1110584 18-Aug-2014 15:44

code15: NZ Herald are saying that the hex 9284C4A9EB9268918E03313DCDAD5C12EFF3D467 attached to @whaledump's twitter handle is Winston Peters' email address.

"The Twitter handle carries the address 3 Hans Cres - the address of the Ecuadorian embassy in London where Wikileaks founder Julian Assange is exiled.
The handle also includes an encryption key which resolves to Winston Peter's email address."

Is this what Winston Peters was talking about a couple months back when he said he had dirt that would cause Judith Collins to resign?

http://www.3news.co.nz/Winston-Peters-attack-on-Judith-Collins-fizzles/tabid/1607/articleID/344006/Default.aspx

Might be a bit of a stretch, but just trying to figure out why the leaker has put up Winston's email address.

gzt: If you have a look at all the posts in the feed for the account that released the information:

https://mobile.twitter.com/whaledump

You can see the account has been taunting and hinting for several days prior. I expect that including something to identify Peters is part of the same taunting process. Including this key could be a hint that the person has something on Peters as well, or it might be just silly. Who can tell.

Or it could be that the person is hinting that some information has been supplied to Peters. This is plausible. The person obviously contacted the herald prior to the screenshot disclosure. Edit: or it could just be a joke for the lols.

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#1110675 18-Aug-2014 17:22

It does appear the dirty politics is gaining momentum.

I have a feeling if the slide continues on national's ratings some scapegoats would have to be dropped. Those would be ede and Collins. Or they might not wait for the rot to set in and cut then loose, but who knows, I'm no good at this Survivor(R) game.

jonathan18

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#1110689 18-Aug-2014 17:56

Glassboy:
jonathan18:
Hager in yesterday's interview with Wallace Chapman on Nat Rad specifically mentioned the Taxpayers' Union as an example of astro-turfing. (And the claim in an earlier earlier that Hager's book is an example of astro-turfing simply shows that there's clearly a bit of confusion about what the term actually means. Again, an inability to separate one's views and politics from the wider issue me thinks...). Ironically, their own website states "The Taxpayers' Union is a grassroots activist group, dedicated to being the voice for Kiwi taxpayers"! (my emphasis).

Really, it perfectly matches the description that Hager gave on National radio, and the definition on Wikipedia.

Apologies for a typo in that post - I had meant to write "... (And the claim in an earlier post that Hager's book is an example of astro-turfing..." Namely, someone here stated Hager's claims in the book and organisations such as the Taxpayers' Union are both examples of astro-turfing; I was saying this person clearly misunderstood the term.

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#1110730 18-Aug-2014 18:51

I saw two posts on the net today that I think are extremely valuable reading for anyone who hasn't read the book and wants a deeper insight than what the media are providing. Or even anyone who (like me) has read it, for that matter.

Cri du cœur - Andrew Geddis

Did Nicky Hager “make stuff up”? - Steven Price, lawyer who vetted the book

jonathan18

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#1110816 18-Aug-2014 20:55

heapsort: I saw two posts on the net today that I think are extremely valuable reading for anyone who hasn't read the book and wants a deeper insight than what the media are providing. Or even anyone who (like me) has read it, for that matter.

Cri du cœur - Andrew Geddis

Did Nicky Hager “make stuff up”? - Steven Price, lawyer who vetted the book

Thank-you for these; essential reading me thinks for all the doubters and cynics that have taken part in this thread, and indeed essential reading for all NZers who need to understand it beyond the the highly politicized and polarised debate it's become.

Two quotes from the Geddis article are worth copying here that highlight this:

There's two possible responses to it that I want to dispute.

The first is that this behaviour and language is somehow "just what politics is". No. It isn't... What the people in Dirty Tricks are trying to do is kill the good in politics and turn it into something completely toxic that destroys any hope of meaningful debate, discussion and conciliation, all so that their side can "win". If that sounds melodramatic and over the top, it isn't. You can read them saying that this is what they want in their own words. And that is a terrible, terrible thing to seek to do. Because if they win - if the way we conduct our politics and manage our differences and decide our common path becomes their vision of how "the game" should be played - then we all lose something very valuable. Basically, we lose our future.

The second is that this post isn't simply an attack on "the Right". It's not even an attack on "the National Party". There's plenty of good people involved on the right side of politics who are worthy of respect and engagement. You even see some of them in the book's pages - Hamish Price (p. 112-113), for example, who defended Bevan Chuang when she fell out of favour with those involved in the Len Brown "hit". And there's in all likelihood some people on the left side of politics who are just as nasty and sociopathic as the ones in this book (the difference being, they don't have anything like the influence or public profile of the folks we're seeing here).

And from Hager's book quoted by Geddis:

[T]he book is not about the inevitability of expedient and unprincipled politics. Understanding what is wrong means things do not have to remain that way. Exposing dirty politics is an essential step in allowing reasonable people to understand and to choose other approaches. There is no need to follow those who are least principled down into the pit.

That anyone who has read even just these two blog postings linked above can continue to say that it's all irrelevant/a beat-up/par of the course (select one's 'reasoning' here) makes me wonder where this world is headed...

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#1110820 18-Aug-2014 21:01

so is there any proof that the Party accused is actually behind the alleged dirty stuff, or just a select few (along with maybe an outsider) without the mandate of the Party?

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#1110833 18-Aug-2014 21:21

joker97: so is there any proof that the Party accused is actually behind the alleged dirty stuff, or just a select few (along with maybe an outsider) without the mandate of the Party?

I'm sure that not all the National party are dirty..

But when you have a senior staffer and a senior minister that has been over Police and Justice talking directly with Whale Oil the rot goes pretty deep.

If John Key didn't know he is asleep at the wheel. And going by today's non-admission on Radio NZ, it seems pretty clear to me he knew.

and

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#1111387 19-Aug-2014 16:31

One possible outcome of this controversy - particularly around the behavior of Slater and his technique of exposing sex lives for political purposes - could lead to government and/or opposition proposals for restrictive media laws in this country around private lives of politicians and celebrities. I will oppose these proposals 100% if they occur. I am 100% convinced that any proposal to restrict media reporting can only damage our democracy - and I regard such laws as being a far greater evil and a far greater danger to the functioning of democracy. Our existing libel and defamation laws are more than enough.

Why do I think this is a danger? The Whaledump account just tweeted this:

"This is not all about party politics. Be patient. You'll see."
"Bye https://imgflip.com/i/b87e4"

It appears to me that the Whaledump account is about to, or is threatening to reveal details of an affair and with an intent to destroy a marriage. Or reveal one that was destroyed by another party. On the face of it I find this absolutely sickening.

Nevertheless, restrictive media laws on top of everything that has happened lately can only further damage our democracy.

networkn

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#1111390 19-Aug-2014 16:37

BarTender:
joker97: so is there any proof that the Party accused is actually behind the alleged dirty stuff, or just a select few (along with maybe an outsider) without the mandate of the Party?

I'm sure that not all the National party are dirty..

But when you have a senior staffer and a senior minister that has been over Police and Justice talking directly with Whale Oil the rot goes pretty deep.

If John Key didn't know he is asleep at the wheel. And going by today's non-admission on Radio NZ, it seems pretty clear to me he knew.

I am interested to know, what do you believe is the appropriate way to handle this mess? You say lets hold our elected leaders to a higher standard, fine I'd like less of this type of BS in politics too. How do you propose we do this?

MikeB4

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#1111394 19-Aug-2014 16:40

Limit the campaign period to just two weeks prior the election date.

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